I believe your story, but what are we to determine as poor behavior/bad judgement versus what is acceptable damage in the nature of politics? George Soros has been involved in many questionable actions and yet Democrats receive dump trucks full of many from him. My guess is that if you tried hard enough, you could find a questionable act conducted by any company that donates to politicians.

I am not quite sure what you want here. Are expecting conservative to step forward and demand Scott Walker leave office because his ties to Koch? Are you expecting liberals to disassociate themselves from any politician that has ties to George Soros (Tom Barrett)?

If the candidate has not performed an illegal act or allowed an illegal act to occur, then that needs to be your base for judgement. To make guilt by association a criteria would leave no one available for politics.

And the Democrats support Planned parenthood which MURDERS babies ... Hmmmmm very ethical

Brian ... How many corporations own most media outlets .. I think you will find your answer there, it is similiar to the Russian PRAVDA ... it is government controlled media

This is the type of response I hear when I talk about this question of ethics. We have a sort of combination of cynicism and subjection to the inevitable, that politicians are funded, and to some extent run, by wealthy donors who may have questionable histories. George Soros, by the way, gave George Bush Jr. quite a check for Harken Oil Co, when it foundered, in order to buy political influence, according to him. He goes both ways. But I would encourage anyone to look into these mega funders of either party. I dont think we have to cave and accept that our leaders have strings pulled by these sort of folks. I think it should be a central topic of conversation. It isnt just accepting money...these are not benevolent souls we are talking about. Koch Industries has extensive business interests in this state and they expect actions for their money...we must assume.
What I hope is that conservatives or liberals or moderates would investigate their candidates...and that the propaganda be checked against who their funding comes from. I would think many conservatives would be less than comfortable with the fact that Walker gets huge amounts of money from a casino mogul for instance. But how many know that? Soros political involvement should be looked at as well.... that is my point: Check these guys out. And realize that money comes with requests for gods sake..if not orders.

JB.... :" It was Soros who saved George W. Bush’s bacon when his management of an oil exploration company was ending in failure. Soros was the owner of Harken Energy Corporation, and it was he who bought the rapidly depreciating stocks just prior to the company’s collapse. The future president cashed out at almost one million dollars. Soros said he did it to buy “political influence.” 15 Soros is also a partner in the infamous Carlyle Group. Organized in 1987, “the world’s largest private equity firm” with over twelve billion dollars under management, is run by “a veritable who’s who of former Republican leaders,” from CIA man Frank Carlucci to CIA head George Bush, Sr. The Carlyle Group makes most of its money from weapons expenditures."

Johnny, the issue here isnt about Democrats or Republicans. It is about leadership and whether or not our leaders support people who violate our laws. I think there are serious ethical issues here. Saying that other people in government also are unethical does not excuse the Governor. Determining that all politicians are unethical and thats just the way it is...is caving to my mind. Our leaders are above the law? I dont think so. I simply think that our Governor should be asked if he approves of the Koch Brothers selling petrochemicals technology to a state our current government views as an enemy. If he doesnt, why does he accept money from them?

JB... Walker is not running against Obama...at least yet. And I hope we can aspire to more than the lesser of two evils at some point in time.

Here is the problem ... The government has tooooo much power over us .. if we limit the federal government especially, to the limits of power established in the constitution we wouldn't have this problem, there would be no reason to stuff them with money to influence there power over us ... it is simple, we the poeple have given them this power over us for the "free" handout at someone else's expense

One mis-statement... The Koch Bros are not Governor Walker's largest contributors...just heavy contributors.

JB...I have no assumptions about people running for office in the past being upright citizens. Corruption affects many governments, some are rife with corruption, but probably all have some corruption. Again, this neither makes corruption right, nor does it justify corruption when it is evident or easy to access.
I think blogs are about conversation. I asked a question...a question with a question. Simply, why does no one ask Governor Walker his opinion about this action by his close allies and supporters...the Koch Bros? It is a two part question... I think reportage is "lite," often on issues which seem very significant. I pose the question, why is this so?

Secondly, I would like to know what the Governor thinks and what people in Wisconsin think about this situation where powerful contributors to statewide leaders are seen to be disreputable...and the money is still accepted and utilized. Given the fact that this money comes with at least tacit expectations... are we all ok then with disreputable folks calling the shots in our state, benefiting handsomely from legislation they are "buying", etc? I think these are fair questions. I think the level of lobbying, statewide and nationwide, on all sides of the political spectrum are very disturbing. I don't think either party has an exclusive on the topic of being tied to lobbyists or this sort of influence. This doesnt prevent me from asking if this is acceptable to the readers of Patch, if they know about these issues, if they support this sort of influence, etc.

I think we should look at what Mr. Soros, the Koch's and numerous other people who purchase influence are doing with our leaders. Fortunately, a lot of it is accessible on the net for people like yourself who do research these candidates and figures. I also think that people who accept money should be held accountable to some extent, that this should be transparent information.

Cow Dung...as I read the article, Koch industries itself sent in an investigator who came to the conclusion that law was being violated. Koch industries determined for themselves they were in violation....

“Those activities constitute violations of criminal law,” Koch Industries wrote in a Dec. 8, 2008, letter giving details of its findings. The letter was made public in a civil court ruling in France in September 2010; the document has never before been reported by the media.

Egorova-Farines wasn’t rewarded for bringing the illicit payments to the company’s attention. Her superiors removed her from the inquiry in August 2008 and fired her in June 2009, calling her incompetent, even after Koch’s investigators substantiated her findings. She sued Koch-Glitsch in France for wrongful termination.

" Koch Brothers, arguably Gov. Scott Walker's largest contributors"

I don't think this is true, very few Koch contributions went directly to Scott Walker.

Brian Carlson, You and Bren are way off on the Koch connection. Do you know that the "phoney phone call" would have been the first time that Walker talked to any of the Koch brothers personally? I think that to this day Walker has not really had any personal contact with the Koch brothers.
This is nothing more than a parrot of a lefty talking point, it's time to give it up.

Will Someone Start Asking the Hard Questions?
Is WEA Trust charging WI Taxpayers 20% over market value for health insurance OK? Is it ethical for Barrett to climb into WEAC's pocket?
If Walker was in WEAC's pocket I'd ask these same questions.

@Brian Carlson...You have hit the nail on the head. Ethical questions should be the questions to be asked. With politicians attached to the "money cow teat", it is more important than ever to question funding and ethics; what those political contributions are really buying. I, long have been an advocate of public financing for political office, eliminating the preponderance of influence of the plutocratic oligarchy This is as anti-democratic as one can get.. .

I don't know about WEAC Greg. I am sure there are many injustices going on. Again, the preponderance of corruption doesn't mean we should turn blind eyes to it when it's exposed. Help us out with information or start your own blog Greg. or both... But I think none of the conservatives here have said... Hey, it's fine that the Koch Bros sold petrochemical technology to Iranians, fine that a sitting governor takes a lot of money from oil intererests that are helping Iran despite an embargo! You think that action happens without Koch Bros KNOWING about it? the action they took was to fire their investigator.

I still think that corruption in our own state tied directly to the candidate, is more important than a claim of something that may have happened half way around the word, without even a shirt tail connection to Walker. Please connect the dots.

Half the way around the world is no longer half the way around the world. The economy is globalized, the nations are interwoven in loans, the corporations bridge any traditional boundaries. If money and influence comes in from billionaires who feel free to run contrary to embargos placed on foreign powers, the nature and extent of that influence becomes suspect. Moreover, how can you take money from people you do not respect and feel are running outside the law. Again, do you think its a good thing the Koch Brothers sold petrochemical equipment to the Iranians? A large part of their Wisconsin business is petrochemical related. I just wonder what the Governor thinks and why he would partner up with people like these and feel "conservative." We are trying to squeeze the Iranians in order to avoid war...another trillion dollar war that many, notably lots of Israelis, seem to want, not to mention the hawks in this country. Meanwhile we have billionaires end rounding the game. I think there is a pretty strong line between the dots.

From CBS news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-46840786/report-koch-brothers-made-sales-to-iran/
Tell me that the relationship between a Governor and these guys is inconsequential.

It is inconsequential if there is no true relationship.
The Koch brothers also support many charities, does Walker get or take credit for that? NO.

Good god Greg...the Mafia supports charities. Does that clean their money or mean that the influence they have on politicians is cleaned up? Come on. Read up on the Kochs and get back to me if you like them. Money...big money... is control..or at least serious influence. That is relationship. But of course everyone has their own opinions...

Can we better compare this to Obama selling arms to the Mexican cartels? Same game, right?

Is Obama selling arms to Mexican cartels? If so, please post links. Arms sales is a huge business and a detestable one to my mind. But please let us know whether you are comfortable with people who clearly are in violation of embargo policies relative to Iran, who profit by assisting that government, also funding the campaigns of a sitting governor and thereby gaining influence on his statewide policies.

Brian, you seem to be doing a really good job at blogging the "new talking points" that Barrett will be running on. I thought this recall was about taking away the "rights" of public employees??? Hmmmm...are you specially interested? I love how because someone has money they get labeled "special interest." I don't see any blogs by the Koch's trashing Barrett.......

Delete
Brian Carlson
8:48 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
If you like the Koch Bros and feel comfortable with them steering Wisconsin policies, including their concerted attack on the EPA, the current administrations efforts to grow alternative energy, wind power, etc., how do you like Sheldon Adelson, thegovernor's no.2 backer? Does the Tea Party feel that casino moguls are now model citizens, representatives of that sort of America they feel has been lost? Money is relationship...it is a political statement.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/who-is-sheldon-adelson-the-gingrich-super-pacs-billionaire-backer/252003/

The evil Koch brothers own billions of dollars of real estate in Wisconsin, employ thousands and they shouldn't have a say in who is governor? Are you liberals mad....of course I know the answer to that, but they have just as much right as you goofs to give $5 bucks to Barrett.

Alfred, you hit the nail right on the head! But realize, this is all he left can talk about. Barrett has been a disaster as mayor. What has he done in Milwaukee that he can hang his hat on? Nothing. That is why the left will be talking about the Koch's, the longest John Doe (and most public...ever) investigation ever, and lies...stay tuned Alfred...they have just begun.

Delete
Brian Carlson
9:17 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
Alfred, is it goofy to dislike the idea that government is, to a greater or lesser extent, for sale to the highest bidders? You actually WANT billionaires in control? Apparently plutocracy is your government of choice then... We can go back to the Gilded Age, to the days of the Robber Barons...assuming we are not already there. Or do you prefer a Corporatocracy? Can you state your preferred form of government and what the definition of that form means to you?

Reply

Weird....just got this email (I like to read what the left is thinking) from Phil Walzak...sounds familiar:

Friend --
That didn't take long. Just as we suspected, Scott Walker and the Koch brothers are using their stockpiles of right-wing corporate cash to hit the airwaves with a massive negative advertising blitz aimed at Tom Barrett and our campaign.
Less than 24 hours after Tom accepted your nomination, both Walker's campaign and a Koch-fueled SuperPAC launched misleading attacks that the Washington Post has already blasted for their "extreme hypocrisy."
Well, we have some news for Scott Walker and his special interest friends: our grassroots network is in it to win it on June 5th. We're not pulling any punches, and if Scott Walker and David Koch are going to come after us, we're going to hit them right back -- hard.
Will you help Tom Barrett fight back by watching our new ad that shows how Walker's failed leadership is responsible for killing a Wisconsin job every hour? Click here to watch and assist our rapid response operation by rushing an urgent contribution of $5 right now.
The article in the Post goes on to note that despite what Walker's hypocritical ads say, the truth is:

"Wisconsin has had the worst job growth in the country, at a time when the rest of the country is recovering. Since Walker argued that his controversial policies were necessary to jump-start job growth, his recall election will be largely all about the economy, and Wisconsin's lag behind the rest of the country" -- Washington Post, 5/9/2012
Scott Walker's right-wing machine is ferociously attacking Tom Barrett, because they know that Wisconsin's middle class is uniting behind Tom's message of putting Wisconsin first. They may have the money, but we have the people-powered army that is ready to go neighbor-to-neighbor spreading the truth about Walker's disastrous agenda that puts out-of-state corporations ahead of working people.
The clock is ticking -- there are only 27 days left before June 5th -- and our campaign needs your continued support to stop Walker and the Koch brothers from using their corporate firepower to mislead Wisconsinites.
Please take a moment to watch our new ad and chip in with a $5 contribution to replenish our rapid response fund right now.
Thank you,
Phil Walzak
Deputy Campaign Manager

This is a lie:
Run in October 2011, it discusses actions by the Koch Brothers, arguably Gov. Scott Walker's largest contributors.

If you scroll back you will see I corrected that mis-statement as soon as I recognized it was inaccurate. They are major contributors.

Good talk Brian. I need to get back to work before I am out of work! Good Day!

Delete
Brian Carlson
10:04 am on Thursday, May 10, 2012
I have been tagged directly or indirectly in this thread, as part of the left, or a Democrat... When I say I am not aligned it is because I don't know the full agendas of many organizations I may agree in part with...but who may be up to other things I disagree with. Also, I am not part of a monolithic block... what is a "republican" or a "democrat"? The words have very little distinct meaning. The right, the left...these are gross abstractions. I am one citizen of what touts itself as a free and democratic country... And I would like that freedom and democracy to be real, not to be a
smokescreen to lull the majority into a symbolic daze while corporate moguls call the shots on what gets done. We were to have a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Right?

You were mislead to some extent then. Unions, of course, represent their membership. Corporations are all about their bottom line. SuperPacs work for the advantage of their boards. The influence of, if not control by, big money, to use your term, eclipses the interests of individuals, gives a lie to the idea that you are represented. You are taxed but the idea that you are represented, has to be qualified. Fortunately, it's still possible to speak up for what you like or in protest.

Corporations represent thier shareholders Brian. Deny you are a liberal all day long, its obvious which side you are on.

I wish there were reply buttons for all posts. Yes CD, I know unions also fund SuperPacs. I dont like lobbying as it is played out in this country and I dont like Super Pacs. I dont like the fact that government can be bought. I think contributions to candidates and to sitting officials should be very transparent and very limited. I dont like Obamas Super Pacs..., I dont like the ones that fund Walker. I dont like propaganda in general... by which I mean the use of content "lite", truth skewed, political advertising, that heavily deploys visual symbols and cues, and hammers simple slogans like "Forward or Backward...that is the only question we face," steering voters away from real conversations such as the one we are engaged in.

I am no one of course. I dont think of myself as significant in the grand scheme of things. I am posing a question as to whether or not government leaders should be questioned as to relationships they have with prime donors... particularly when those donors periodically run seriously outside of the law. I am wondering why the specific issue I cited ISNT an issue, evidently, with many supporters of this Governor. I dont hear answers... The general drift I get I would sum up by phrasing,
"this is just the way things are. Business as usual. All sides guilty." In other words, backers of this Governor are ok with his tie to a corporation guilty of huge sales of petrochemical equipment to Iran, to violating embargos..etc. Its not a problem.

Hey Brian, did you sign the recall petition?

Oh, but come on....he is just a Non-aligned observer. Seems to me he is very aligned and by writing a blog...would that make him more than an observer?

We can all point fingers. It is easy to find bad guys in positions of power. No one here has a monopoly on virtue. It is time to live in the present ... to act in the present and to make your will for peace known.

I have already said that no party or official has a monopoly on virtue. Greg you are repeating points I have made. I appreciate that but you seem to think they are arguments. I agree with you.
I do not agree that we should remain quiet when our officials are being influenced by people who steer legislation in exchange for serious financial contributions. If any of you believe the Koch Brothers have no significant influence on what goes on in this state, then we agree to disagree.
Relative to trying to determine who I am specifically Csl, my photo is posted as is my real name. I do not hide behind nicknames, or first name only signatures. I wish everyone on Patch would do the same.

Easy Brian...I just asked if you signed the recall petition? I was curious to know. I make no bones about it. I am a conservative and have a problem with paying $8,000 a year in property taxes for not much. I have no kids in the school system. Scott Walker is doing what I think is right and WHY I VOTED HIM IN THE FIRST TIME. But again, I am being told by the left that my vote did not count....

Csl.... You have every right to vote for Scott Walker and to defend him. No one has told you your vote doesn't count. Recall elections are part of the provisions our state has made for situations exactly like the current one. No one is forcing this nor does a recall election itself mean that your vote will not count. Mr. Walker is our Governor right now... you voted for him...right? He may or may not win the recall election...it appears it will be a close contest. In that election your vote and mine will count exactly alike. Who is this "left" that tells you things....? Is there a spokesman for this "left"? This is what I mean about black and white thinking... Is "left" all that you disagree with? Is is simply people who vote for non-Republicans? It is very vague terminology as it is when liberals talk of "the right" as if that meant something particular. Language is highly limited as a means to communicate to begin with...but I think we need more clarity of thought which means more precision in terms of words. Just my opinion...

Hey, I would honestly like to thank everyone for keeping the replies and statements on this thread above the belt. It was refreshing not to have to watch the thread transition to blog vandals slinging taunts at one another. Conversation is interesting and of potential value when the silly boyish squaring up and posturing is transcended. I like to hear diverse points of view presented in a respectful interchange. That is constructive, even when we disagree.

Greg, I liked the urban dictionary thing! Yes... of course. As all human truth is subjective we are all self deceived! One thing I am not deceived about though is having any thought as to being a pro at life! Definitely an amateur. A hacker! There are few water hazards or sand traps I am not familiar with.

Brian, I haven't read all the posts, forgive me if I repeat some themes. While you state your complaint is against a political system and the lack of ethics within it, you focus very specifically on only one example, Governor Walker and Koch Industries' campaign contributions. So no wonder those who support the governor are a little dubious of your critique. Of course unethical behavior is to be condemned. But ethics exercises, real and academic are posed all the time, for example, your survival is at risk as you drift in the sea. Lifelines are offered only by very rich people, all who's ethics are questioned by some because of how they attained their wealth and others just because they are wealthy, call them Koch and Soros. Your only immediate decision is to grab a line or drown. If you grab a line perhaps in time you can reform a system that only permits wealthy people to throw the lifelines. This is the course President Obama has taken; originally in '08 claiming he would accept matching funds, only to change his mind and out raise his opponent. Today his Department of Justice is reluctant to prosecute Wall Streeters complicit in the '08 financial collapse because many in the DOJ come from that world, and many of the Wall Streeters financially support the president's campaign. Is a good person or good career that is saved by a bad person necessarily compromised and wasted? To some the answer may be easy, to many others it will be complicated, i.e., it depends ...

"Questions are the piety of thought"
keep up the good work.
One question we need answered: Why do Walker's ads lie and distort reality?

Steaks and politicians. Steaks - rare or well done? A piece of meat either way. Politicians, a little or very corrupt? A politician either way. I prefer my steak rare and politicians left hanging on the meat hook in the butcher house freezer. Corruption and collusion from politicians does not taste good nor is it a value from a taxpayers standpoint. T- bones on the grille are tasty without the side effects of regret of eating them, unlike voting for undesireables like the state is faced with.

@Alfred: you're too funny.
Walker's ethics are only one issue. His near-fascistic ways; his apparent lack of concern for people, workers, families, educational needs,; his commitment to destroy the principles of a democratic republic; etc. "True North principles" never change, unless you are Scott Walker, apparently. It's a shame none of you see past the distortion of reality. "Truth is un-hiddenness." Obviously, you've been drinking the plutes's Kool-Aid: Get thee to a Tubal Detoxification lab, pronto!

Is everyone here really this dumb? Am I missing the big picture? The #1 goal of a business is to..........wait for it................wait for it..........MAKE MONEY! That is the SOLE purpose of a business!!! Is everyone here really that far out of touch with reality?

Eric, I come out of a religious based background, several religions informing me, and none of them, to my knowledge say that ends justify means...moreover that good ends can be justified by bad or evil means. I pretty much still hold with that belief. Not everyone does and you may or may not be one of them. Koch Industries determined that what they were doing was illegal...not me. I don't know what came after that beyond the firing of the investigator. There is and was an embargo.

I am not apprised on the situation you described with Obama, but if he is guilty of breaking a law or is trading favors with people who are breaking the law, he should be called on the carpet for doing so.

I encourage the dubious to research Koch industries themselves and deduce what they will. Maybe they will feel better about their governor...maybe not.

As to bad persons saving good ones, that doesn't seem to be the issue I addressed. I was talking about influence...not support. The money is less the issue than is whatever may be returned for it... It's not likely a gift...more of a trade. If you trade with a bad person, to use your analogy, what is it you are asked to do and does that serve your state?

So hide behind your trite cliches and meaningless banter and observations. Or the rants about <insert politican name here> is owned by <insert company name here>. As long as the poltician is working for American's financial gain he's got my vote. And that, my fellow patch friends, is how it works.

This is the attitude that brings planes to our buildings. But I appreciate Neils candor.

Can we also take the Democratic party to task regarding Koch donations?
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/democratic-group-asks-koch-brothers-donation-attacking-them-155806538.html

I would be willing to put a healthy bet on the Democratic party taking the five figure donation they requested had Koch Industries not outed them for hypocrites.

Since both parties take political donations from Koch, the only answers to your questions are: 1) They don't care where the money comes from. 2) They don't know the inner working of the businesses that donate. My guess is that it's a good part of both and if a reporter asked the questions you wanted asked, any politician in his right mind would answer ambiguously with #2.

The problem is that people on the right are ok with Koch, while at the same time people on the left are ok with Soros. Eliminating these people will not fix the problem as new people and influences will replace them.

I recommend "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins to anyone who wants to learn the dynamics from an insider as to how this economic war, mentioned above, is conducted. On a global scale we make countries self serving "offers they can't refuse," and once accepted, their indebtedness puts them in our pockets.

Greg, the post on ATF gun "walking" to drug cartels is very disturbing and should have a lot more examination. many believe the war on drugs is maintained to perpetuate instability in specific regions so that we can continue our influence with military or CIA presence... An advantage that would be imperiled by the presence of freely elected democratic leaders. This has been part of our history certainly.

JB you are too intelligent to read what I write as black and white as you have. Empire building, by any empire, has been, by general standards of morality, amoral. Weaker countries are conquered, either directly by force, or directly albeit less obviously by economic means, and are subsequently exploited. Exploitation that pays marginally more than abject poverty, working conditions that are, by any ethical standard, prisons... The workers being physically abused, working ridiculous hours with next to impossible demands for production at meager wages, with absolutely no rights...these, to my mind ARE evils of business as usual. You may find them acceptable... But this take that we are doing people favors by offering slave wages and conditions to people who might otherwise starve is, to my mind, a grievous excuse to ignore our own complicity in grave human rights abuses most certainly a cornerstone of MANY, not all, businesses. There are stellar examples of businesses that actually help their workers... Exploitation is not help.

Brian, you are posing lots of questions and only half critiques, so how would you make it better? As JB eludes earlier, do we all return to log cabins and bartering, or ... ?

You know what would be fun? Going through everyone's house on this posting and looking at the goods they have and what country it was produced in. Would be very enlightening. Or how they earn a living, where the money actually comes from. Follow the money trail. At least I'm honest with myself. And understand how a capitalist society works.

@Brian Carlson....The comments you are currently receiving are an indication that we are, in fact, suffering a deterioration of morality. The outcome of the Reagan years is that greed and the pursuit of self interest is the highest moral principle. It is clothed in the values of self sustainability and personal responsibility. In a strange way this is the outcome of a distorted belief in Social Darwinism. The empire of the United States has gone the way of all the past empires; dedicated to our own supremacy without any thought to our eventual decline and the results on our own population. Exploitation of others makes us vulnerable to exploitation. We are already beginning to see it with a devaluation of the worth of labor. It appears to me that we are in a trend where humanity is being globally devalued and for the longest time in this nation has treated our own human beings are nothing more than another resource to be exploited to create wealth and power for a select few.

One must remember that the ultimate rests in the citizen's hands, the vote. We can make a powerful statement by voting in those that still value human beings and the future of a positive life.

AT&T once supported the the evil empire. So what do I do, when I want to make a telephone call, as nearly all the major phone companies in the USA are made up of the 1984 AT&T assets divestiture(baby bells,ATT invented the cell phone system);no phone calls for you!!! . Need an MRI, or any of many,many other medical imaging procedures; probably not, as it is likely a GE machine or running GE technology.

Lots of conjecture and innuendo, but, no evidence that the brothers Koch specifically endorsed the plan to sell to an embargoed country. However. there appear to be ethical issues with the way they disclosed the problem when they discovered it. Maybe, for some, guilty in the court of public opinion; in a court of law, clearly not guilty.

@Alfred and @JB; my thinking is close to Lyle's: so I won't repeat.
I do find that your comments deflect your thinking from the path that might lead to thinking those deep thoughts n asking those questions that look for the truth, that which is unhidden. All of us-not only in the US, but across the globe are interconnected. Essentially, more Americans discount this Truth than embrace it and live accordingly.We must change our approach to thinking; we must change our thinking about Democracy and Capitalism.
It may be true for all of us that our beliefs, opinions, behaviors, and attitudes have changed as we have grown, learned to ask more of the right questions, and come to grapple what it means to be interconnected.
I am sure that as a recovering plutocratic Republican my opinions, beliefs, etc. have grown and changed. I would hope that they do for all educated people. If not, get thee to a tubal detoxification facility, now!
I haven't had the privilege of sitting with Lyle or others who question what is going on but I think we all have come to realize that in this interconnected world an approach founded on Augustinian and Aristotelian beliefs will be better for the whole. Isn't that with what we all ought to be concerned? Instead we have Ayn Rand's selfish,objectivism fueled by calvin's misunderstood belief about earning. Hyper greed, hyper capitalism is just plain sinful. Embrace instead: Truth, Unity, Beauty, Goodness and Love. try it for a decade, see the results.

Jb...Last century, certainly the most extraordinary in human history by geometric proportions in terms of material advancement, technology,science,etc.... over 200 MILLION people died as a result of military conflicts... perpetuated by administrations very much motivated by materialistic goals. I dont call that advancement, the "ascent of man" or progress in any sense of the word. If progress is predicated on the slaughter or usurpation of human beings... it is not progress. Our technological and scientific prowess, has outstripped the sort of maturity and wisdom to understand how to apply these advancements for the betterment of mankind as a whole. We are entirely interdependent on one another... Eric... I wish I could solve the huge problems but of course I cant. What we can do is work on a paradigm shift that is no longer based on the way things were the past few centuries.... no longer rooted in a myopic and isolationist nationalism... but cognizes what should be obvious... the globe has no lines drawn on it...my air and water is your air and water... the sun shines on us all ....or doesnt. We have to think globally while acting in our communities...such as this one.. to share thoughts in a respectful manner. We have to grow up to the requirements of a single planet.

Brian,
I think your blog was well intentioned, but certain examples took it off track. In the end it will make me look differently at things like Obama's billion dollar "War Chest". I'm sure the who's and where's could fill a massive blog with ethical challenges.

Greg, I am happy if my blog leads you to deeper examinations of anyone's war chest including the Presidents'. When you come up with some examples, like the specific one I cited, let us know. The standard one is Soros... and I agree, it would be better if everyone understood what he is up to. At the same time, Soros helped George Bush Jr. out extensively, buying Harken Oil from him for the expressed purpose of purchasing political influence. So... some of these guys go both ways so to speak.

J.B. You have a huge topic introduced there. I would imagine that the Axis powers all saw themselves as capitalists. Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, and a host of other large corporate powers built the war club that took us years to break. Hitler, to sort out one of the true bad guys, had a plan for a Third Reich. He was to be the next Caesar. To do this, he had to break the British Empire. What do you imagine differed significantly between the plans of the British Empire and the plans of the Caesars? They sought to have that flag waving wherever the sun arose...global empire. Caesars was as global as he could be at the time, but the Brits pulled it off. In doing so, they exploited peoples all over the planet with impunity, with racism, with a suprematism that was very close to the sort of white Aryan suprematism Hitler touted. I dont know how many people the Brits killed over the whole length of that empire and prior to pulling out of all their holdings..."granting freedom," to these people. They certainly were not free under the Brits. Hitlers plan was horrific and finally was pulled down. It was pulled down by a concert of the waning British Empire and the new empire, the super power United States. From the days of Manifest Destiny, the US has systematically, progressively, spread its holdings, influence and control around the world. If you are in the dark as to the nature and extent of our actions, in Latin America, the Middle East, etc. you should read up on them.

It is not all a history to be proud of JB. I sincerely wish it was. The prosperity you mention was built, to great extents and continues to be built on the suffering of non-Americans. It requires it. THis is the elephant in the closet of all of our lifestyles. Denying it or ignoring it is an option. But the folks who suffer aren't deluded about the nature of American power. Even our NGOs are used, in concert with the economic warfare and direct interventions (threats, assasinations) to pressure alignment with our "democratic" will. Free markets? Hmmmm.

Lots of conjecture and innuendo, but, no evidence that the brothers Koch specifically endorsed the plan to sell to an embargoed country. However. there appears to be ethical issues with the way they disclosed/resolved the problem, when they discovered it. Maybe, for some, guilty in the court of public opinion; in a court of law, clearly not guilty.

It was noted above that AT&T and GE once supported(conducted business with) the the evil empire(Hitler et al.). So what does one do, when they want to make a telephone call, as nearly all the major phone companies in the USA are made up of the 1984 AT&T assets divestiture(baby bells & AT+T is the cell phone inventor);no phone calls for you!!! . Need an MRI, or any of the many,many other medical imaging procedures; guess one should suffer, as it is likely a GE machine or running GE technology.

Please define the line, with mathematical precision, as I will use it in all my decision making.

I think I mentioned earlier that the planet doesnt have lines scribed on it where countries end. Corporations are ubiquitous. They may headquarter here, but the product is made on the other side of the planet. There appear to be several governments.... The idealist mythological one we were taught about as kids, the work-a-day government, with it's representatives and senators and presidents, it's two parties....then there are massive multi-national corporations with incredibly large incomes, and, last but not least, there is the CIA and other covert forces, which historically is not always in line with the administration. I think we have to grasp the truth that there is no Santa, and let the first rest on the shelves near our childhood toys and photos. When dealing with the second I think healthy skepticism, listening between the lines and looking beyond the postures, seems critical. Those folks are well aware of the other two governments... And we must do what we can to peer through the subterfuge to see as much as possible what the he'll is going on. We can't see through red white and blue colored glasses...

We have to look sharply if we love this this country. We can't screen out all communication from "the other side" if we are to live together and improve our country and world. Denying what we have done wrong will not win us any trust in the future. Wecanbuildon what isgreatabout this country but not with blinders on, not by resisting fair critique. We may again be able to raise our heads one day....speak without hypocrisy about human rights to others who abuse them, and become able to assert that this country stands for equality, freedom and liberty. But we only fool
ourselves if we assert this while wearing the ermine robes of empire. The rest of the
planet can see through them.

Any thoughts Oakcreek Patchians?