Well, to address the clock changes it is real simple, just change the start times 3 times a year. If a kid is seen yawning at practice, they should just send him or her home. Stacy and Dolores Skowronek kids will never be able to fall asleep before 11:00 pm after having to listen to them say YOU CAN"T FALL ASLEEP BEFORE 11:00, YOUR BODY WON"T LET YOU. The national sleep institute says they CAN. "Besides adjusting the timing of the clock, bright light has another effect. It directly inhibits the release of melatonin. That is why melatonin is sometimes called the "Dracula of hormones" - it only comes out in the dark. Even if the pineal gland is switched "on" by the clock, it will not produce melatonin unless the person is in a dimly lit environment. In addition to sunlight, artificial indoor lighting can be bright enough to prevent the release of melatonin." Put your kids in a good sleep environment and they will fall asleep. Kids have adjusted for many, many generations just fine. My kids are BRIGHT enough to figure this out and have no problem going to bed as early as 9:00 pm. Stacy, I don't think you even are from this District, so dont try to spend taxpayer money in mine. If they spend one red cent on changing school times ( the money could be used for faculty and education) Recalls will happen. ASK the taxpayers where they want the money to go, put this to a referendum.

I agree. People put their kids in all these activities so they can have "well rounded" kids.

Also changes used in making skillets and fry pans has changed, the old iron skillet is out for those feather light, teflon coated ones. Well, for christmas I threw out the light ones and got my wife the iron jobbies and her upper body is looking much more toned. She is delighted with the results. Maybe that heavier vacuum cleaner I am going to get for her Birthday will tone up the lower body. She is going to really luv me if it works.

And I suppose when she throws the cast-iron pans at you, they don't sail as far, right? I'm sure her aim will improve over time, as her muscles build. :-)

Does he go to 9pm every night--including weekends? His body should be able to adjust to a consistent sleep schedule, especially if it is only 1 or 2 hours difference. It's kinda like how everyone's body adjusts to the clock changes for daylight savings time.

Rather than spending money on the full spectrum lights in the mornings, try dimming the lights earlier in the evenings to trigger the melatonin. Don't let him nap during or after school. Don't let him have caffeine during the day.

What happens when you drive your teenager to Michigan (eastern time)? Do they need to start school even later than those in the central time zone?

How do teens adjust to daylight savings time if their circadian rhythms are so inflexible?

If they can adjust to a time zone change or daylight savings, why can't they adjust to going to sleep an hour earlier?

Cowdung: I have asked the question about time zone and daylight savings changes also. I never get an answer. The answer is, they CAN adjust. So adjusting the school times argument goes right down the toilet.

Yes, he goes to bed at 9 on school nights, but what about the weekends? Does he nap after school? What are his caffeine habits? There are lots of things that can have an effect on sleep.

Farm kids all over the country get up before dawn to do the feeding and the milking before they head off to school. What is their secret?

What causes the teen brain to not be ready for sleep at 9? How does the brain know what time it really is? If it is 9 pm here, it's really 10 pm in Michigan--why can't teen brains be adjusted to function on Michigan time? How can they adjust readily to daylight savings or travel time changes, but can't adjust to winding down and going to sleep an hour or two earlier?

Speaking as a farm kid who had morning and evening chores, I could not sleep well during junior high and the first few years of high school. I was just wired some nights. I think my brother was the same. Weekends were not much different, just substitute other chores for school.

Caffeine soda was allowed, but I don't think we had much.

Regarding being ready at 9 or 10, it is habit that sets that time for adults and for kids. Change the clock an hour and adult habits adjust. Kids too, but unfortunately their phase delay also 'adjusts'. It is a real thing.

Yes Lee, things were pretty tough back in the day.......
http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

JD, the experts from the Medical College did address the ad hoc committee, but never addressed the Board as a whole. While I honestly don’t remember them saying anything about altering circadian rhythms, I don’t doubt that they said it. I know individuals can alter their internal biological clock through phototherapy or prescription medications such as melatonin. But the issue of school start times has very little to do with altering an individual’s internal body clock – instead it’s about setting equitable policies that impact an entire student population. That includes kids who have not undergone interventions to change their natural adolescent circadian rhythms. If altering circadian rhythms is a solution to the problems associated with early start times – how do you get everyone to undergo the necessary therapies or interventions? You can’t, nor would you want to.

Hhahahahhahaa, Therapies and interventions, phototherapy and drugs. My God, get a CLUE Dolores

The expert did not mention melatonin prescriptions or light therapy. The question was whether or not going to bed earlier and establishing a regular routine could alter the circadian rhythms as opposed to waking up later and the answer was yes. No therapy, or meds, simply going to bed earlier. Again, this came straight from the expert.

JD, you were not at the ad hoc committee meetings so please refrain from posting what you think was said or not said. I was at the meetings and the MCOW doctors said nothing about simply going to bed earlier.

Dolores Skowronek. Can I quote you on that? I know someone on the committee who asked the question and received that answer that is of the highest level of integrity. You already said "I honestly don't remember them saying anything about circadian rhythms" in your comment above so which one is the truth? Is it easier just to change start times? Yes. Is it possible to make adjustments of about 1-3 hours through establishing a routine? Yes. The experts stated as much.

The ad hoc committee no longer exists. I am not 100%, but I am pretty sure that the committee investigated this in Spring of 2011. I was not on this committee but know some people who were on it and that question was asked of the experts once the price tag for making a change was revealed and they wanted to see if there were other less costly solutions.

I have my doubts about the way Dr Milewski's findings are being presented in this article because A) The number of athletes that do not get enough sleep was not revealed by the author. 68% appears to make it the leading cause of injury unless you understand that it is comparing athletes with sleep versus athletes without sleep and not a percentage that reflects all athletes. Most athletes do get enough sleep - they usually are worn out. B) There is no mention of whether or not overuse or specialization has been factored out. Most kids get hurt because they are using poor technique. The leading cause of sports injuries is poor technique as the result of being tired (more from overuse/specialization etc than lack of sleep).

Lastly, I believe the author's example of her son's injury is VERY deceptive and misleading because it does not even apply to any sort of fatigue, he simply received a cut (sutures), which happens in wrestling. The other injury wasn't specified but there are way too many other variables that need to be ruled out before claiming a causal relationship.

Your data is misleading on sports injuries and I gave evidence for that already. I also believe agricultural work has higher rates of occupational accidents because of all of the dangerous machinery, unpredictable livestock, and heavy lifting involved. I am sure construction and other such dangerous jobs have similar numbers associated with them.

The physicians that were quoted were the same experts that Mrs. Skowronek brought in to get the time changed form the Medical College of Wisconsin, which is a well respected and prestigious state association. I think they do compare pretty well to Minnesota and other national groups. Dr. James Andrews is the foremost leader in sports medicine. He trumps anyone that doesn't have expertise in sports medicine and has tons of research from all ages to back it up.

Lastly, a 1 hour adjustment should be enough in this case, but is a bit on the low side of what is possible. I agree on your points about third shift workers not being able to make the adjustment, but a few hours is very possible. If a teen gets to sleep (not in bed, but asleep) by 10 (an hour earlier than your 11 pm number) and gets up at 6, they will have had 8 hours of sleep, above the national average that you are aiming for. Some will obviously be able to sleep even earlier because 11 PM and only 1 hour of change are not hard and fast rules but very conservative numbers based on overall averages.

That's because it takes a while to adjust which requires establishing a routine. Of course, the first day of adjustment is difficult. In fact, it appears that it proves them right about daylight savings and ability to change one's rhythm naturally with a disciplined routine, not wrong. One gets sore every day of the first week or two of working out, but eventually the body adjusts. Dieting, quitting smoking, not drinking soda, etc are all difficult at first, but once they become habit, become positive life changes. It's the same with adjusting circadian rhythm 1-3 hours. Hard at first, but definitely possible.

Using "facts" to keep you from the truth.

I live in River Falls, WI and the blog showed up on my feed too. The Patch seems to share blogs a with other communities. To me it was an interesting topic and I appreciated a lot of the views, questions and research sharing. However, at some point the discussion went sour. It seems to me that some people are compelled to take a conversation to an end point where there is only right or wrong; differing view are not tolerated.

There is a lot more to it over the course of years Mike. That is probably why you have that impression. They aren't mentioning the cost of changing the start time amidst massive cuts to education. That money has better uses. Also, some of the arguments and data being resented are flawed to achieve an agenda.

Chaos78. There are probably closer to 300 to 400 student athletes. There are at least 100 just for football. You are correct about full scholarships, not many get them, but alot of kids get athletic scholarships disguised as academic scholarships, of course they have to have good grades. Colleges stress more than ever that athletes have great grades. Greenfield also has kids that get academic scholarships. They also have time restraints after school with studying, jobs, community service, ( which colleges also look at) and some play sports or belong to other clubs as well. Every year kids at Greenfield receive anywhere from $ 500,000 to over a $1,000,000 collectively. I was speaking with a counselor from UW Milwaukee and said to her, that I thought it would save money and be easier for my child if he just lived at home. She said no, they want student athletes living on campus because of the time constraints put on student athletes. They might practice before, after and breaks in class time. Also make sure they eat right, get in their study time, keep grades up and try to get enough sleep. It doesnt really matter 1 to 3 hours when the school day starts, as it has been proven that kids can adjust, the expert Dolores had talk to the school board stated as much. Some kids are just motivated more than others and understand what they have to do to succeed. The money to change the start times could be more wisely spent in other areas.

Dolores, Don't call me a liar. This is what JD posted and I have no reason to not believe him. "I know someone on the committee who asked the question and received that answer that is of the highest level of integrity. Is it possible to make adjustments of about 1-3 hours through establishing a routine? Yes. The experts stated as much." And here is what you Said , While I honestly don’t remember them saying anything about altering circadian rhythms, I don’t doubt that they said it. Sooo, what is it? Did he say it or not? The Indians have a phrase for this, "you speak with a forked tongue" Talk about someone lying. The national sleep institute also says it can be done.

KHD, you are misrepresenting what the medical professionals said at our ad hoc committee meeting. Not only is that highly inappropriate, but it also discredits the expert opinion of two highly trained physicians. They were very clear that the children in our community are NOT benefiting from our 7:10 start time.

From the Mayo Clinic:

"Resetting the clock

The good news is that your teen doesn't have to be at the mercy of his or her internal clock. To help your teen develop better sleep habits:

Adjust the lighting. As bedtime approaches, dim the lights. Then turn off the lights during sleep. In the morning, expose your teen to bright light. These simple cues can help signal when it's time to sleep and when it's time to wake up.

Stick to a schedule. Tough as it may be, encourage your teen to go to bed and get up at the same time every day — even on weekends.

Nix long naps. Too much daytime shut-eye might only make it harder to fall asleep at night.

Curb the caffeine. A jolt of caffeine might help your teen stay awake during class, but the effects are fleeting — and too much caffeine can interfere with a good night's sleep.

Keep it calm. Encourage your teen to wind down at night with a warm shower, a book or other relaxing activities. Discourage stimulating activities — including vigorous exercise, loud music, video games, television, computer use and text messaging — an hour or two before bedtime.

Know when to unplug. Take the TV out of your teen's room, or keep it off at night. The same goes for your teen's cellphone, computer and other electronic gadgets."

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/teens-health/CC00019/NSECTIONGROUP=2

Dolores, why did you delete your comment calling me a liar? I am not discrediting anyone. I am just stating what someone else pointed out what was said at the meeting, Are you calling JD a liar also? Or is it only you that is correct on what you post? I think it is you that is misleading.

Here is what you said to me the first post: Dolores Skowronek also commented on Sports Injuries and School Start Times - Doing the Math.

"KHD, while I know that you are lying when you comment about what the experts said – readers of this story may not. Refrain from posting misinformation about what was said at a meeting you did not attend. There is no excuse for blatant lying and misrepresenting a medical professional’s expert opinion."

Dolores no one is misrepresenting what was said. You admitted that you did not hear them mention it. Just because you did not hear it does not mean it didn't happen because it did. The expert opinion was that a later start time would be beneficial BUT there were other (free) alternatives like setting a better sleep schedule through repetition. Setting the schedule is hard work, but very possible and the experts agreed it to be true just as the mayo clinic etc also agrees. The later start time makes it EASIER for teens. It is irresponsible to present later start times as the ONLY solution to the problem. I asked before with no answer - if it is this important to you, have you considered finding grants or raising the money outside of district money to pull this off? Because with the current budget there are far more important uses for 200K.

When I posted this I didn't mean to be a d@ck. My point is the u.s puts way to much in putting WAY to much money on a athletic scholarship. We are putting $500,000 down on a sports "club" that is $500,000 to much. I would rather see a $1,000,000 scholarship to a woman/ man who "solves world peace"

In a perfect world changing start times is a good idea, however there are other costs associated with the changes Christine. It would cost the district over 200,000 dollars to change the bus schedule in the midst of massive cuts to education over the course of many years. Smaller class sizes have shown to be a better way to spend the money. Technology is also behind in the district. There is only so much money to go around, so you have to make tough choices about what will have the most impact on learning. Technology and smaller class sizes (which are up to 40 in a lot of cases) are more important. Another cost of changing times is having hundreds of kids miss classes due to athletic events which can't be pushed back due to available daylight.

Lastly your statement "we under-perform other countries in educational outcomes" is the biggest red herring of them all. Foreign countries have high stakes tests to get into secondary school (don'tmake the cut = farm or factory) and they also do not have compulsory education laws. They only test their best students and we test ALL students. It isn't an accurate comparison. It is the same reason why MPS ACT scores look worse than they are. Everyone takes the test including cognitively disabled students and students that don't try or care but are forced to take it and they don't pay for it out of pocket. Not a fair comparison with motivated college bound suburban students that paid to take the test.

Jd is correct on test scores being scewed. In Japan, they start school later, but some kids go in early for sports and they have lots to do after school. Thes kids are probabably not getting to bed until about 12:00 or 1:00 am with about 5 or 6 hours of sleep. Our kids do not have it that hard. Just an FYI: A typical middle school or high school students, however, arrives home from school at around 4:00pm, has a quick snack and attends cram school classes, often three times a week from 5:00pm to 10:00pm. Sometimes students have cram school classes Saturday and all day Sunday too. 
The school day lasts from around 8:00am to 3:00pm but varies from day to day. Although it is a little longer than in the U.S. school day, Japanese students generally have more free time and breaks during their time at school. Sports clubs, even ones for elementary school, sometimes require students to show up for practice early in the morning or stay at school until 6:30 or 7:00pm. On an average day, Japanese high school students attend school from 8:30am to 4:00pm and have 2 to 6 hours of homework a night, depending on the school, individual and how immersed in exam hell they are. Many attend cram school in the afternoon and on weekends and are heavily involved in sports or club activities. 

One of the biggest tragedies of the Japanese education system is the fact that children and teenagers study all the time and they have little time left over for fun. Students at one Japanese high school were beside themselves with envy when a visiting American high school student talked about how he spent his after school hours driving a car to the mall, dating, making money with a part-time job and talking on the phone for hours in the evening.
A survey of Osaka high school students found that 80 percent felt stressed, 86 percent weren't getting enough sleep and 40 percent were getting less than six hours of sleep a night.

"A survey of Osaka high school students found that 80 percent felt stressed, 86 percent weren't getting enough sleep and 40 percent were getting less than six hours of sleep a night."

I wonder what a similar survey of our high schoolers would look like.

I agree that the doctors' presentation was focused on changing the start time and was focused on their opinion that students do not benefit from an early start time. However, it is 100% true that they were asked by a member of the committee if circadian rhythms/sleep cycles can be adjusted for teens and they said yes. Students do not benefit from an earlier start time because it is harder to make adjustments, but they can be made and the doctors confirmed that. Some in the committee that were against spending money on changing the start time were accused of being against the best interests of the students. I know what happened in the meetings and I didn't hear it second or third hand. There are other options and I do not think that it is right to attempt to silence or bully those other options as being "not in the best interest of the kids" or calling them lies. A later start time would be better, I just don't think a 30-45 minute change is worth 200k that could be spent better elsewhere. The focus of those that want the start time changed should be on finding a way to pay for the change through fundraising/grants or finding a way to make the change with no cost associated so that the district's money is spent wisely in a way that will impact student learning (smaller classes, better technology). Also, a solution will have to be found for athletes missing a lot of class because they will have to leave school early for competitions 2-4 times per week.

I did read them and people were arguing about a miriad of things. All I am saying is we shouldn't spend money on school start times. The best way to find out where the money goes is to look at our budget.

This is why some are hostile to you Stacy, you do not know anything about the district, its needs, or the costs involved. Changing the times WILL cost money in Greenfield and you should know that by now. The Brookings institute also did a study on smaller class sizes touting that as well. The change that was being considered was 30 minutes to an hour maximum, hardly a good use of $200,000 in the face of being far behind area districts in technology, having class sizes in the mid to upper 30's, and other more pressing issues considering that many nearby districts start fairly early as well and seem to be doing just fine.