Your right Greg. Not liking him is not a valid reason. I did not vote for him and I always give credit where it is due. To me he is earnestly digging in and trying to solve Wisconsin's problems.

Greg , with all due respect for your position , let me give you mine. The gov. and the reps. came in with an agenda which he did not run on in his campaign . I know Randy Hopper when asked in Oshkosh if he supported collective bargaining said yes. Hopper is gone. 14 state senators left the state so the voters could voice their opinion. During this time the gov. chose to ignore what the overwhelming majority wanted. To meet in the middle. His job is to represent the people. The people rejected his agenda and he chose to ignore them. The reps. made it clear that their agenda was to cripple unions so they could not collect dues. This has nothing to do with a balanced budget. I believe this gov. has no intrest at all in balancing a budget. It's all about an agenda. He gave away his position with the KOCH brother conversation. Shame on him , thinking about putting thugs in the street to cause trouble. And how do you hire your friends and give big raises when your cutting the pay of long time public employees? Many agree that the defecit must be dealt with. We just don't agree with his political agenda. His arogance will defeat him. And I don't care about previous administrations . We are dealing with the present. That sir is why I will sign the recall petition.

@Richard Vergis-If you think he didn't run on this in his campaign then you weren't paying attention. He constantly butted heads with public employee union heads and got nowhere. the overwhelming majority voted to fix the state's fiscal woes. Now Democrats like Abele and Barrett are wanting their public employees to contribute in their budget proposals. That would never happen without Walker's reforms. The only thing the fake Koch brother call exposed was that there was no corrupt connection with them before the election. And Public employees still pay less than the private sector for their own benefits.

I completely agree with Greg. This recall is absolutely unnecessary and as taxpayers, a complete waste of our money. Walker has not had a chance to be in office long enough for us all to see the results of his actions, and honestly has anyone's life been dramatically negatively affected whatsoever by any of the changes so far? From most people I have talked to, quite the opposite actually. For a suburb with some of the highest property taxes in the country, it was quite nice to see them not go up. Take a second to think about what you are doing before you waste your time signing one of the recalls. Being a student on campus, I actually find the recallers INCREDIBLY annoying and I believe they should spend their time applying for one of the thousands of jobs Walker is bring to our state.

" I actually find the recallers INCREDIBLY annoying and I believe they should spend their time applying for one of the thousands of jobs Walker is bring to our state."

You mean one of the 9,700 we lost just in November?

randy--how about one of the 250 jobs walker recently brought just to our TINY suburb of bayside?

I agree. Under Walker the future of Wisconsin looks dismal. Education and a healthy environment is crucial to the future of Wisconsin!

Sorry, Doyles numbers were worse for the last 11/2 years of his disaster.

JL - could you point to a specific problem that now exists that did not prior to Walker that was caused by Walker?

I agree with you JL 100%.

JL: You may not be a union member but your friends demonstrating at the Capital are. They are whinning because they had to accept reasonable increases to pay for their benefits, which meant there were NO large layoffs. People got to keep their jobs NOT lose them and we the people got a balanced budget. The majority of people are NOT upset but appreciative of great leadership.

@ JL
Do you know FOR A FACT that for every 1 protestor there are 1,000 more that are just upset? How many protesters are there at the Capitol? 100? 200? 300? By your math, if there are 300 (which I don't think there are or the lapdog lefties in the media would still be following that) that means 300,000 signatures. Sorry, my math says less than 540,000.

Yes, my property taxes went down as did yours if you live in the City of Oak Creek. While no one likes to see home prices drop, that equates to a decrease in property tax because our cities house is in order and the tax rate did not increase. Facts! Stop whining and get off you butt and do the right thing.

@Michael -- I reiterate, have you received your first post BRB tax bill yet? The drop in the fair market value means nothing until the municipalities re-assess, and then who knows what the tax rate will have to do to make up for it.

Get off my butt and do the right thing? What is the 'right thing' in your estimation? I'm neither a teacher nor a member of any union. I just pay my taxes as they come due.

PS, I see Oak Creek reassessed. My locality has not, yet.

State income taxes aren't going up, unlike the situation in our neighboring Illinois, and property taxes are in fact going down in certain districts all over the state.

The property tax situation is more dependent upon decisions made by your local government than by Walker. If your local governments ran a tight and penny pinching ship, had little or no publicly issued or private debt, and fully utilized the tools made available to them via the BRB, then property taxes should go down, just as they are in many districts across the state. However, if your local governments were poorly ran, mismanaged, are carrying a good deal of publicly issued or private debt, are undynamic, and have not fully utilized the tools made available to them via the BRB, then it's possible that your property taxes could be going up - however the increase cannot exceed the rate of inflation unless the increase is resultant of a special assessment or school district implementation/referendum.

But how can you honestly and fairly hold Walker accountable for a poorly run, mismanaged, and completely undynamic local government? If state funding is cut, the local government should respond accordingly and adapt as opposed to just raising taxes to make up for the loss in state aid. And the properly run local governments are adapting quite successfully!

Blame your local leaders Randy1949, not Walker. Whether the money comes from the fed, state, or local collection coffers, it's still all taxpayer funds!

@Randy1949 -

You're just upset because under the old system of massive fed/state aid pouring into localities, all the other taxpayers would be chipping in and helping to cover the poor decisions of your local leaders so that the individual burden on you for electing poor local leaders wasn’t as great.

Under Walker’s system, if you elect crappy local leaders, you’re going to get burned. But isn’t that how it should be? Start holding your local politicians accountable! Why should I or anyone else be made to help pay for your district’s poor local decisions? Walker’s system encourages greater public involvement at the local level.

So instead of crying, get out there, get involved in your local government, and start cleaning house!

If other districts are having success, as they are, then there's no excuse why it can't work for every district!

It's still our money, JRH. The feds and the state keep on collecting the same (unless you're a 'job-creator') and giving back less, and they call it lowering taxes. What it is, is letting it all roll downhill.

@Randy1949 -

Now you're just being plain dishonest. In your past postings here on Patch, you publicly stated that based on your deductions and itemizations, that often times you were able to effectively zero out your federal and state income tax bill, or at the very least have a very relatively small fed/state income tax burden. And we’ve already previously settled the payroll taxes issue, as those revenues go into supposedly segregated funds that pay back out to you when you meet certain qualifications.

So, in essence, what you’re effectively saying with your “letting it all roll downhill” theory, is that you want others to help carry your local tax burden. Like I said before Randy1949, if you don’t like how your local government is being run, then do something positive to change it for the better instead of crying about Walker!

But don’t expect others to have to carry your local burden. I certainly don’t expect others to carry my local burden and I pay way more in fed/state income taxes than you do.

The reason for that, JRH, is that I have a small income. The principle of fair taxation is that it is taken from those best able to pay it. But if you're content with my shouldering a higher local/school tax burden than many of my neighbors with a higher income, that's your right. People do tend to vote their own pocketbooks.

By the way, I DO pay federal and state taxes; that has always been my point. I'm not one of the 48% you guys are so fond of citing.

@Randy1949 -

If you're paying none or a relatively small amount of state/federal income tax (outside the previously aforementioned and dealt with payroll taxes), then in all reality, none of your taxes are running downhill to your local level governments.

Instead, it's my taxes, and others like me, who carry close to an effective 30% tax rate or higher burden on our incomes that are in effect subsidizing and making up your local burden via fed/state aid to your local level governments.

So, in all reality, I’ve been subsidizing your lower property taxes. And now that you have to shoulder more of your actual burden, your upset about it? Come on Randy1949 – get real!

“The principle of fair taxation is that it is taken from those best able to pay it.”

I strongly disagree with that statement. In Hoffa’s world, the term ‘fair’ means that everyone is treated equally, everyone pays at least something, and all special interests are kept from influencing the taxation system. I know that you’ve already seen Hoffa’s proposed federal tax system. Under Hoffa’s proposed state tax system, your post fed taxed income would be taxed at a flat rate of 4%, making your overall combined effective fed/state income tax rate at about 10.5%. And yet, you were complaining about Hoffa’s 8% fed income tax rate!

Bottom line – you just want people wealthier than you to subsidize most of your tax burden, period.

@JRH -- MY local taxes? I'm so glad to hear your children and grandchildren don't go to school, your garbage does get collected, and your home requires no police and fire protection.

For the record, I'm very happy with the way my local government is run. The school district is another thing. I pay about 25% of my income for the school levy, and they're not doing such a great job, judging by the level of writing skills I see nowadays.

Randy: Don't be so dense. Walker balanced the budget....by making needed cuts and without raising taxes. I stand by Walker.

I knew he would, I think you needed to be blind or stupid to think he would not.
And yes, my property taxes are going down.

@Greg -- have you received your bill yet?

That's a bogus straw-man argument put up by the unions, Dustin. What he very publicly did during 8 years as MKE county Exec. was reform the county without raising taxes! Every year he asked the unions to start paying towards their increasing health and pension costs, and the unions all flipped him off. It had to be voluntary, because there was no State law directing it. So he changed the law once he became Governor. Changed the law, Dustin, because there is no such thing as collective bargaining rights. He ended an unsustainable over-egregious privilige enjoyed by government workers, which ended the ability of unions to bargain against us taxpayers.

I have no problem with calling into question collective-bargaing rights. The gov just pulled the plug on them without stating public he'd do that. Voters never had a chance to weigh in on the idea, so now they're resorting to a recall as recourse provided in the state Constitution. Recalls exist to hold politicians accountable for acting outside of their campaign promises.

@Dustin -

"Recalls exist to hold politicians accountable for acting outside of their campaign promises."

If that were true and accurate, then Doyle and the Dems should and would have all been effectively recalled when they raised state taxes despite their express campaign promises against doing so!

In Walker's case, there was no broken promise, as he never said that he wouldn't go after the public sector unions during his campaign. He merely remained silent on such issue.

Very differing set of circumstances Dustin.

@JRH...I didn't say I would and I didn't say I wouldn't. Pretty flimsy my friend. His performance in Milwaukee County was abysmal and those of us who lived in the county wouldn't have elected him again.

The governor has a reputation of misrepresenting his intentions. I fully agree, after talking to a number of Republicans and independents, that he would not have been elected if he had fully disclosed his intentions. As I hear it a good share of the Republican legislative leadership were not aware of his plans either.

@Lyle -

Then the recall effort will effectively put this issue to bed for you once and for all, regardless of the result.

My point is that the standard that Dustin seemed to be proposing for recalls is that candidates must disclose everything they intend to do if elected up-front and during their campaign, regardless of whether or not such undisclosed actions are consistent with their overall platform, ideology, and agenda, or not.

Curtailing collective bargaining rights for public sector employees is consistent with Walker’s agenda of trying to reduce state and local level governmental costs, streamlining local government functionality by eliminating a highly bureaucratic system that the unions added on top of the bureaucracy of the government itself, and eliminating the inherent conflict of interest that public sector unions added to the taxpaying structure in our country. Not to mention the benefit that schools will realize when they become able to easily fire poorly performing teachers and thus increasing the benefits to our kids!

By the standard suggested by Dustin, Obama should be impeached for restructuring federally guaranteed student loan debt via an executive order, as he never expressly said that he was going to do that during the coarse of his campaign, despite such action being consistent with Obama’s overall agenda.

And Doyle did expressly promise that he wouldn’t raise taxes during his campaign – that was an outright LIE! Big difference!

dustin, yes he did say that he was going to make public sectors pay for health and welfare. Numerous times. Stop lying.

@JRH...You can't compare Walker with the other two. He came into office with the intent of busting the public unions collective bargaining rights. Obama did not know the financial crisis of student loans and he is within the law. Walker is also within the law and if he wasn't, it wouldn't be a recall, it would be impeachment.

If and when the recall is done, then which ever way it goes the matter is settled.

@Lyle -

I was working within the confines of Dustin's expressed standard. The standard was not mine. And according to that expressed standard, the comparisons are fair ones to make.

I have heard this sooo many times. Someone please tell me 1 politician who in all his time campaigning has said EVERYTHING they plan to do while in office? I don't think anyone has that kind of time for our candidates to write down everything they plan to do and for us to sit and listen to the whole list. Maybe it should be either everyone is union or no one is union?

Now the degenerate Republicans have passed laws that make it more difficult to vote despite the fact that there existed no significant "voter fraud." That lack of faith in the democratic process should tell you something. about the character of these creeps.

@Joey
There are 14 other states that require photo IDs for voting. Can you point out any instance where this law has caused voting problems in another state?

If I need to show my photo ID to get a sams card, checking account, library card, be allowed on plane and get a fishing license. Why should it not also be appropriate for us to have ID when we vote for our leaders?

Not fail win !

Steve,
They will probably burn down the capitol, Block or destroy all major bridges, and then ask for a handout.:)

Well said Michael!!

Why is the choice of your retirement investment the fault of the moocher mentality?

I believe, collective bargaining rights serve everyone.
The right to bargain is not the right to get everything you ask for; it's the right to sit at the table to debate decisions that affect your life. But if divide & conquor is good enough for you, then you probably deserve the America that will be left after these libertarians take all they can get from people like you — who they look upon as prey. Good luck...

@Joey
When people discuss the 'rights' involved with collective bargaining for get some key components:
1) The privilege to bargain collectively was granted by the state and is in no way a right granted by either the state or federal constitution.
2) No one in the private sector has the ability to bargain on all aspects of the work environment. Instead, when a private sector employee doesn't like the environment, they leave.
3) Collective bargaining fails because it is not a fair debate. In the private sector unions work against the employer and vice versa. The resulting agreement includes sacrifices from both sides. In the public sector, the unions have a hand in picking the employer representative (elected official). The employers representative then works with the unions to get them the best deal for the unions completely disregarding his job to represent tax payers. Hence, you end up with what we had. A system that was weighted against the employer to favor the employee.

As a private sector worker, collective bargaining rights do not serve me. That hurt me with higher taxes.

'Divide and conquer" - If that is what you think happened, you are blinded by your own ignorance.

PS- Libertarians are work to take rights away from the government not the individual. Something that would benefit us all.

@Michael: I disagree with your creative use of percentages. Isn't it equally accurate to postulate that perhaps as many as 92 % of us, or higher, are touched by those affected by the Governor's actions. And, isn't our current situation reminiscent - from an ironic historical perspective of certain civil war inciting decisions - of certain decisions made by leaders of the Republic upon which our Democracy has its origins? Consider, for example, those "rapscallions, the Caesars; they were fascistic. Do any recent actions taken by Government appear near-fascistic? As a lifelong Republican, I am discouraged beyond the beyond. I've recently been called out for not wanting to kick pebbles around. I would like us to co-create a sustainable future. We begin w/ conversations, which are dances with partners using words- conversations are that is, certainly not what goes on up here frequently. What now? at either the state or national levels? Do we duke it out, insulting and throwing rocks? How do we achieve principled compromise with no absolutisms (hope you heard that interview) and - since we now face - what - another 18 months before the paralysis unthaws, given the virtually guaranteed predictable failure of the SuperCommittee - what with the full support given to "The Pledge" (check last night's 60 minutes): would we not all be better off to attempt to write a new social and civil contract: "Begin with the end in mind"&"seek first to understand and then to be understood". best,ngp

The republican's split up collective barging and the budget so they could be vote on separately and didn't need the dems doing their job to make it happnen. The dems then ran back from Illinois after hiding out there for weeks like children. They didn't even make it to the vote. This was less than a year ago were you in Illinois as well?

What 'fact check' was that? USA Today seems to think that State and local government workers earn more than private-sector workers in 41 states, and that public employees' compensation has grown faster than the earnings of private workers since 2000.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm

Robert@ Quit!!!!!!!!!! Please with thousands and thousands of people looking for work, public employees who think it is better in the private sector should immediately quit and let someone who will appreciate having a job do theirs......!!!!!!

"The analysis included full and part-time workers and did not adjust for specific jobs, age, education or experience. "

If you don't account for critical statistics, I am the greatest man to walk the earth. I hope you get my sarcasm, or the fact that these data points were left out of the comparison. This means that every Walmart, McD's, grocery store bagger, etc were included in a comparison against skilled workers through Dr. level education public workers. Fair comparison? Sure, if it is going to be used against those "who have".

What fact check was this on? School employees wages are public knowledge and seeing them, there are not many private sector employees that make them wages, with all the benefits that come with it. Not a dig to teachers, they earn their money. But there is no way they make less than private sector employees.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was at the polls voting for Tom Barrett. However, there have been quite a few people who voted for Scott Walker who would not have done so had he been honest during the campaign about his plans to dismantle collective bargaining. And, sad to say, there were many people who stayed home but wish they had it to do over again now that they've seen what's happening in the state.

Randy, don't think that every changed vote would go against Walker. Even so, the recall is a BS way to go about regaining power.
I agree Susan, this whole thing is going to take a TON of money. The elected reps should be doing, for the state, not trying to keep their jobs. This obstruction will cost us all.

You're assuming a diminished will. Some of us didn't get to vote in any senatorial recall elections, although we would have very much liked to.

@Randy1949 -

The 'diminished will' is just one factor amongst many that I accounted for, and you'd realize that if you read my entire post.

Plus, you're actually going to rag on Hoffa when he's the only one that came up with a credible analysis that actually results in directly answering the question posed by the article in the first place, without including all of the other political rhetoric that essentially makes up every other post contained in the comments section thus far?

Well sorry for upsetting you! ;-)

Go ahead patch
get off your computer butt and get a presidential recall going.

We are the grassroots and did not wait for a Party to get us motivated.

@Zelda –

The same Democratic legislator who was twittering about the goings on at the special legislative session, Assemblyman Cory Mason, used his time during the session to request an audit of Walker’s plan to save $.5B from Medicaid and raising taxes to restore state funding that was cut from the technical college system. What does auditing Medicaid and raising taxes have to do with jobs?

Mason is just as big a hypocrite as any other politician. Instead of talking Medicaid and taxes, where was Mason’s job bill? No where to be seen. Hmmm… instead of spending his time on our dime twittering, maybe he should have drafted a jobs bill to propose. Hey, there’s an idea!

Come ON!!!

I agree with you 100 percent!

Thank You Zelda ... I think you just hit the Wanker on the head !

If they would have had live feed then the citizens of Wisconsin would have witnessed exactly how political corruption really works at the Capital.

Wow - you're really extending this latest temper tantrum, aren't you? Van Wanggard? REALLY???

You guys are psychotic! Thanks for trying to turn Wisconsin into a never-ending election cycle.

Clearly, the next law that needs to be changed is the recall law, so that the committee's that enable a recall election have to pay for all of the governmental costs involved if such efforts are unsuccessful!

Yep, this is the true face of those representing the whole Recall Walker effort.

I vote to let Angry White Dude and his friends go over to the Madison apartment and interview Cowan and Dee Her!

I wonder if either of them are public employees.

The government doesn't owe you anything. Get off the computer and work if you want more money. We are sick of handing it out to you welfare leaches.

We are one of the last states to have conceal and carry. Took 5 minutes to pass it, plenty of time left to keep the leaches from grabbing more of our hard earned cash.

The church used to be the outlet to help those in need. Now it is pappa government that can never seem to find the ceiling of corruption during the hand out.

If you think the poor need more money then drive into Milwaukee and start handing out cash.

@Zelda –

Lay off the democratic talking points, unabated propaganda, and rhetoric already! And stop watching the Rachel Maddow Show – it’s polluting your mind!

You lost all your credibility over on the other board where you falsely claimed that the new Voter ID bill prevents disabled people from voting, when in fact the new bill actually changes very little of the procedure regarding curb-side voting. And you’d know that if you bothered to compare the old election statutes to the ones amended via the Voter ID bill. But alas, instead of doing this, you just continued to persist in spreading your untrue and false propaganda.

Give it up and go back to the Daily Kos where they’ll appreciate your lies!

2nd amendment and right to protect your person and family. End of story. We already have open carry and are the one of the last states to pass this. Cry more.

So 100% of legislation has to do with the business climate? This actually did even though it was not it's intended purpose. Hunting and gun stores are gearing up and seeing a HUGE increase in gun sales. Walker is on a roll.

@Zelda -

We've all heard the class warfare card played plenty already. You’re not adding anything new to the discussion. So stop fulfilling Master Soro's wishes, and turn off the propaganda and rhetoric machine – or at the very least, give us here on Patch a break and take it over to the Daily Kos where they’ll congratulate in the comments sections for being so smart because you think just like them!

@Zelda... the caliber of AWD's gun is inversely proportional to his IQ.

Typical liberal response, nothing but an empty pointless personal attack

@Steve -

I think that most of these name callers used to be stock traders that would 'short and distort' stocks. They just adapted that strategy and substituted 'insult' for 'short' and the rest is history - the liberal playbook in a nutshell!

All these lil Wankers on here are pathetic ... If you didn't make $250 thousand last year why would you ever vote Teapug ?

@Bucky -

Go back to doing what you know - like protesting at a Special Olympics celebration!

Leave the real discussion/conversation for the adults!

I think the disproportionate number of 1%'s in Kohler might have you thinking that everyone there is a 1%. That is far from the truth, as there are plenty of homes under 1800sqft and $175K. As for your other points, keep on keeping on.

Zelda- You forget that people move in and out of the upper class all the time. People move from the middle class in to the upper and those that risk it all in the upper can become poor.

Keep playing the class warfare. You want the rich to pay for the lazy poor but bash them every step of the way. Do your part, donate 30% extra of your income to the IRS, they will spread it around with compassion.

Zelda ... The Wanker lovers on here live under rocks. When Scooter has the rocks taken out of the fields all these wannabe bees will be home less. The worse is yet to come. Wait till next year when Wanker jacks you up for more cash to support his big business interests !

@MrsPeel -

You ever hear the old adage about a person who makes assumptions? Ah, nevermind!

If Patch is so 'crappy,' then what are you doing here? You may want to go back to the Daily Kos and leave the serious discussion/conversation here on Patch for the adults! Just do us all a favor and take Zelda with you!

@JRH...what assumptions did I make? I simply asked if you were part of the Koch Brothers club that meets in Aspen. If you are a member, good on you. If you aren't then they are going to screw you. Simple as that.

@Mrs Peel –

“so you have been” “That must mean that you are one who wants to” “I hope you enjoy your”

How exactly are these not words of ASSUMPTION, but words of question, as you now suggest? Perhaps you should go back to elementary school!

Keith
Sitting by the computer and reading Walker's propaganda site will not enlighten you.

Instead get some fresh air and volenteer:

.......We will be attempting to recall three Republican State Senators as well: Senators Van Wanggard, Terry Moulton, and Pam Galloway. We expect activists to try to recall other State Senators, however the Democratic Party is only focusing on these three districts. There will be a second petition for the Lt. Governor as well, so that means that our volunteers will have two petitions with them. In the districts with the 3 State Senators, they will not carry the Lt. Governor petition, instead they will carry one for Walker and another for their State Senator.....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/06/1033700/-Walker-Recall:-Death-Threats,-False-Starts,-and-Useful-Details-%28UPDATE%29?via=siderec

Sun Nov 06, 2011 at 08:44 AM PST
Walker Recall

@Morninmist Same -

And reading the Daily Kos does enlighten you? You're joking, right?

Actually, I attended a training session (large group of volunteers showed up) and learned the same thing.

I and others are ready to go out and collect the signatures.

Cheers

James R Hoffa

2:01pm on Tuesday, November 8, 2011

@Morninmist Same -

And reading the Daily Kos does enlighten you? You're joking, right?

That story is ridiculous. The state is subsidizing a bus system in Racine. Why should a tax payer from outside Racine pay for the bus. Stanek admits that the system is not sustainable without state aid and that they refuse to raise the fare. Then it should fail. Stop giving handouts. The distance you are from work and your personal modes of transportation should impact your job decision. It should not impact the distribution of tax dollars.

Let me point out the ignorance in your logic. My wife has a 30min drive to work. Unless the state starts to subsidize our gas cost she will quit. Therefore, Walker's inability to create a gas subsidy for commuters is creating unemployment. Obviously my wife made a decision to work where she does, if we couldn't afford to get her there she would have to quit. Your logic is however, if you ride the bus, then the state should subsidize your commute? that is just more socialist BS.

@Schmidt0675...Your assumptions on which you base your logic is false. You are assuming that those who must ride a bus have a choice. Those in that state of affairs don't have the options that you and your wife have. If they had the resources to move they would or buy a car. What would you rather do; supplement the mass transit system or pay them welfare? Your choice.

Lyle,

Your assumptions are equally as faulty. I've been with 3 different companies that moved out of inner urban environments (including Racine) and in none of those cases did we lose employees from the area due to transportation issues. In most cases, they were able to carpool. I invite you to take a drive through some of the worst sections of town - surprisingly (to you, perhaps) you will find a number of cars parked on the sides of the road.

People are lot less helpless than you automatically assume they are, just because they live in a crappy part of town. Having spent a lot of time in those parts of town, I can attest to their ability to not only get just about anywhere they want if they have a mind to, but to some rather ingenious ways a number of them have come up with for circumventing the conventional economy and providing a cash basis living for themselves - and, no, I'm not talking about professions that are in and of themselves illegal.

If public transportation makes sense, a small increase in price to maintain service isn't going to kill anyone. From what I've seen of their usage these days, we've got a number of bus routes that could be shortened or eliminated. Powering a machine that size to get 6 people from Capitol and Oakland to Bay Shore isn't an efficient use of money, equipment or, frankly, depriving anyone of a job they couldn't get to in another fashion.

Public transportation systems are almost universally not sustainable purely on revenue. They have to be subsidized by the government in order to survive(re: Amtrak, Milwaukee County bus system). I remember reading awhile ago about the plan to build light rail in St.Louis. For the cost to build the system they could literally purchase a new car for each and every rider that would ride the system. Government/society has to make a decision on the value of subsidizing the system. In the case of urban bus systems it's essentially a transportation system for low income residents. What is the value derived from such system? The primary driver better be for transportation to jobs. If you remove that need then the need for a busing system would disappear. Amtrak and rail on the east coast can be justified based on the service they provide for business travelers. In essence, we as taxpayers are always on the hook for these public transportation systems. They will never be able to be self sustaining. Which also calls into question their value to society.

@Bob McBride...I adamantly disagree with you. I too worked in Racine and when we moved our plant from downtown out west of 94/41, we lost 15% of our workforce due to transportation issues. I also worked for a firm in Northwest Milwaukee, 8500 and Bradley, and there was no bus service that people could use that didn't take two hours to get to the plant. You are so grounded in your convictions that you are unable to see that there is a legitimate need for public transit, for the benefit of the whole.

I don't know how long it's been since you rode the 10 or 15, but by the time they hit Brady they are full. It's only when they get close to the end of their routes that ridership appears to be down.

My children have never been forced to buy or drive a car because we have good public transportation. They have been able to get about just fine. My son who is currently in graduate school in San Fransisco rides his bike and uses public transportation there. He understands the value of public transportation.

Because of Milwaukee public transportation we only have one car and we put less than 6000 miles a year on it. Public transportation has been a god send on our budgets. For awhile we didn't drive at all and just let the car sit. We couldn't have done that without public transit.

@Lyle -

If you take a ride down Racine's State Street, you'll swear you must have stumbled onto a Cadillac dealer's car lot!

@Morninmist Same -

Democratic and left leaning mayors are ripping Walker??? Say it isn't so!

What's that? The DPW is sponsoring and supporting the Recall Walker effort? I see. Now it all makes sense!

Come on - show me one Democrat that's actually praising Walker's reforms and I'll give you a dollar!

The Democrats are clearly more interested in putting their partisan politics over public interest! Instead of working to bring this divided state together, they further expand the rift with all of these recall efforts and keeping the state in a constant election mode!

Stop crying and let Walker and the rest of the Republicans get back to work!

Lyle,

I didn't say there was no need for it. Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that to assume that if people don't own cars and there's no public transportation, the only option for them is to go on welfare is a faulty assumption - and you know it. Plenty of folks car pool and I stand my experiences as proof of that. I have no way of verifying any of your experiences, but since it doesn't jive with mine or that of other situations I'm aware of, it remains suspect as far as I'm concerned.

As regards the 15, I was referring to a specific portion of the route and, as I said, if we adjusted such routes (like we used to with that one, btw) so that we weren't running mostly empty buses most times of the day to certain areas, maybe we'd have enough money to put more service in those areas that need it. But somehow it never comes down to that. Instead, we hear we have to continue to provide service, even in areas that don't justify it and if we don't, we're being heartless.

What your kids do or don't do in SF has no bearing on anything here. That's like comparing Disneyland to the rest of the real world. If that's what you're expecting to happen here, don't hold your breath - start packing and join them. We can't afford to provide more public transportation for the few like yourself who can afford a car and, in fact own one, but just feel like using public transportation. It's supposed to be necessity, not a socially conscious feel good or luxury.

@Lyle
Why should the state pay for your family to have the ability to park their car? You silly Keynesians. As for San Fran, I would not want their high taxes/fees and their outrageous cost of living that their social engineering has imposed on its citizens. When the Cali goes bankrupt, how well will that system work then.

As for moving and losing people. Any company moving from A to B will lose employment. Even if it moved from Whitefish Bay to Brookfield. The wealth of it workers is pointless.

Maybe if we stopped creating systems that made people dependent, we wouldn't have people dependent on the government. How did this country survive before welfare and SS? Don't get me wrong, we should offer help to the needy, however it should be limited and small. People need to work their own way out of poverty. The government cannot do it for them. Proof is the failed war on poverty. Have dumped trillions of dollars on the poor and yet they still exist.

@Schmidt0675 -- Why should the state pay to light your streets or plow your roads? The answers is, because it's good for the general well-being of the public.

How did this country survive before welfare and Social Security? We stole it from Native Americans, and failing that, we robbed trains and stage coaches if things got too bad. Life has changed.

@Bob McBride & Schimdt0675...My point about San Fransisco is that my son learned to effectively use public transit in Milwaukee and it has carried over for him in other settings. Look how many students are able to attend UW-M and MATC because of the public transit system. Just as all public services don't produce a profit, by their nature services must be paid for by taxes. If you choose not to avail yourselves of them, then that's your choice.

Lyle,

You're assuming that everyone who rides the bus to school does so because there's no other option available to them, whereas if we're making it unrealistically cheap for them to do so, that may be the reason they do so. Further, maybe if we charged those who do so, but don't really need to do so, more, we could afford to put more routes out there for those who actually do need to use it.

It's not society's duty to provide a convenient, economical transportation to those who don't really need it. If they're gaining some benefit from it and they can afford to, they should pay a good price for that convenience. You have a car and you can use that. When you choose not to, you do so because it benefits you in some fashion. You should be paying a price in accordance with that benefit, not one that encourages you to use public transportation, thus inflating the impression of the "need" for the system.

If someone's saving, say, 15 (gas and parking) bucks a day when they don't drive their car, there's no reason that savings should be 6-7 bucks on a system that's partially taxpayer funded. Let them pay $14.00. It's still a bargain and you're providing them with less hassle for their buck. Give the subsidized rate to those that actually need it.

It wouldn't be hard at all in this day and age to come up with a system that establishes different rates for different classes of user. In fact, I do believe we do that now with students.

@Randy1949-
I don't have street lights on my block. Have you ever left the city limits? There are numerous areas that do not have street lights, including subdivisions and country lanes. My assumption is that those people only leave home after sunrise and are always back with the safe confines of their driveway before dark.

As for snow plows, we have had private garbage collections in different parts of the city for years and for some reason there aren't piles of garbage everywhere. My guess is the same could be done for plowing snow.

Using your own logic of the public good, there is no end to that idea. Are weed free lawns a public good? Is everyone having a car newer then 2006 a public good? What else should the government do that is for the public good?

Yes, prior to welfare every white american left home in the morning with his Indian Beating Club (otherwise known as a IBC) and a red bandana to cover his face in order to rob the nearest train. In fact the dust bowl was created by masses of americans heading west with their IBC's trampling the prairies in search of Natives to beat. Thank goodness for FDR or we would have run out of Natives to beat and started on in on endangered animals.

@Bob McBride....Student tuition at UW-M covers their bus passes. The surrounding communities don't have to deal with all the traffic congestion and parking. Having public transportation helps the community and the students.

@Schmidt0675 -

Thanks for the laugh - that was awesome!

@Schmidt -- Of course I've left the city limits. I grew up in the country and I'm still there, although the 'suburb' has come out to meet us. I don't have street lights either.

My point about stealing from the Native Americans is that in 1840, if you were living in New York City in total poverty, with no social safety net, you could, theoretically, get your things together and head west to a place where land was free for the taking. you could build your own cabin and catch your own food. Life was hard, but there was a chance. That country no longer exists. We're becoming the Europe our ancestors came here to escape -- a place where all the land, wealth, and power were tightly controlled by a few.

@Lyle Ruble... Would that be the student portion(1/3 total cost) of the UW-M tuition or the taxpayer(2/3 total cost) portion of the total student tuition costs?

Lyle,

Great, then we have the university system essentially subsidizing the bus system as well. It's a part of "tuition" whether or not the student actually uses it, correct? Since tuition pays only part of the cost of attending school, it could be argued that the taxpayer is already dumping more into the bus system indirectly as it is. All the more reason to hit the user up for some more $$$. Once we hit the point where there's no financial incentive for folks like you to use it in place of their car, and we've done due diligence in the cost/benefit area for each and every route, maybe can revisit whether or not we really want to have the taxpayer subsidize it further.

@Randy1949
Although our ancestors treated the Natives poorly and were evil in some of their actions. That was going to happen no matter what. Over the coarse of world history civilizations have been absorbed as world population expands. Civilizations have been lost, even within the Native American culture different peoples were overtaken by rival tribes. In the long run, the Indians are better off today then they were 300 years ago. Although they have chosen to live isolated lives in reservations that tend to cut them off from the rest of society, they still have cars, running water and casinos.

We are becoming Europe because we continue to give the government more control over our own lives. The problems Europe faces today is not because of the wealth, it is because they are eliminating the middle class through socialism. When you attempt to make every one equal, you lower the living standards for all. You can't make people equal and raise their standard of living at the same time. Their is not enough money in the world to do that.

So the European model has doomed itself because its socialist standards have removed personal drive to do more with your life. That is why when you flip over the items in your house you never see 'Made in Europe'. You see countries that
So the European model has doomed itself because its socialist standards have removed personal drive to do more with your life. .

@Randy1949 - continued
That is why when you flip over the items in your house you never see 'Made in Europe'. You see countries that have embraced success driven by capitalistic. (yes, china has embraced capitalism and it is butting heads with its communist leaders, but they love the money it brings in.)

Also, our ancestors left Europe, not because of the rich having all the money. Rather they left because in American they had the opportunity to succeed. When you have the opportunity to succeed, you also must have the opportunity to fail. In today's United States we are removing the opportunity to fail by attempting to institute socialist programs that try to bring up the those that have failed. When you remove failure, you are in essence punishing success. (i.e. heavily taxing the rich to redistribute the wealth). When you start to punish success and failure is nor long a risk, everyone ends up living in a state of lower middle class because there is no capital being generated and the money that is left is in the control of the government

@Lyle -

I'm curious. What kind (brand/make/model) of car do you own?

Schmidt0675

I was going to take an eveing shift at the nursing home but last bus left at 9:10.
So that job was out the door. Same with a friend who would have taken the job.

Those of us without cars are at the mercy of public transportation.

Walker and folks like yo yap about all the jobs and incinuates that we are lazy and bums-but there are real barriers to talking a job.

Sorry, but it comments like this that make me think "Don't come to my door!"

@Todd Bower -

You may want to bone up on your history, son! James R. Hoffa didn't believe in public sector unions, just as FDR didn't. And James R. Hoffa always endorsed and supported Republicans, not Democrats!

BTW - All of the Vegas loans were legit! And Test Fleet was legit! Robert Kennedy was nothing but a little weasel!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTGGCquwLgM

@Schmidt0675...How big was the deficit that Doyle inherited? Over $5.3 billion. He wasn't afraid to raise revenues to close the gap.

Didn't really work to raise "revenues" without controlling your out of control spending. In 2003 he came into office with a $3.2 billion deficit. 2006 with a deficit of $2.15 billion. In 2008 it was 5.4 billion. He wasn't in any place to be prepared for a recession and left us with a boat load of debt. Walker fixed all of this right away and you guys want to recall him and send us back into trouble.

@Lyle –

So, in other words, Big Daddy Doyle wasn’t afraid to LIE and break his campaign promise against raising taxes, oops, I mean ‘revenues’ (I know how liberals just hate the ‘t’ word)!

So Doyle breaks an express campaign promise and you give him a pass. Walker doesn’t say anything about the public sector unions CB ‘privileges,’ oops, I mean ‘rights’ (I know how liberals are in denial about the whole rights vs privileges thing), during his campaign, and even though its consistent with his overall platform/ideology/agenda, you guys scream foul, call it deceitful, and now continuously want do-overs with the elections. Come on, you guys sound like a bunch of spoiled bratty kids who always have to win playing miniature golf!

What Doyle apparently was afraid of doing was eliminating waste/fraud/abuse from government spending and start reigning it in, as he should have done before raising taxes, oops, I mean revenues!

Why not have the government tax everyone at 100% and then distribute all the the services equally? In your assumption what should the tax rate be and if it is not 100% why do you support a reduction in services and jobs?

Bucky, your math is wrong, especially that last part. Only economists use that math(and only partially). Where do you think that tax money comes from? The taxpayers. Here's another equation:

Lower tax burden on me=more disposable income=more purchased goods/services=more jobs

This liberal lunacy has to stop. The government rarely creates economic value(NASA, NIH, and the like are the agencies that come to mind for me that actually create value). The liberal ideal would be that everyone worked for the government. Somehow in this scenario money flows from heaven to pay everyone.

We are getting the benefits issue under control now with Walker. Teachers will not be running for the exits due to these changes. They'll gripe a bit(or call in sick and occupy the capital) but deep in their hearts they know they still have a pretty good deal going. They are always free to leave the profession and join us in the private sector.
Yes, we need teachers, policemen, firefighters, etc. All admirable careers. But we cannot continue to pay them with platinum plated fringe benefits.

@Bucky -

Both FactCheck.org and Politifact completely debunked the LIES that you liberals are perpetrating about Walker's tax cuts.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/walkers-tax-cuts/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/feb/25/responding-rachel-maddow/

You may want to try something called 'THE TRUTH,' instead of continuing to recycle Rachel Maddow's LIES!!!

Bucky, you've achieved your Herman Cain moment - people are finally paying attention to you. You're toast.

I think that your all missing the point here. Walker gives business a 2 year tax break to move to Wisconsin. He's hoping to draw business from Illinois because of their high tax rate. What is the benefit if they move here and don't hire people and after the 9 to 5 they jump the boarder and go back south. In his Job Bill there is nothing ever mentioned about monies being put back in to the schools for skill base training.
235301 You need to purchase a military tank out of Oshkosh to keep those people working so they have more disposable income so they can buy more garbage made in China. What do you consider a supporting family wage in today's economy ?

Weren't you the one who posted that lying piece of internet spam about Medicare premiums going up because of ObamaCare?

The official cost of the capitol cleanup was $347,000, not 'millions of hard-earned tax dollars'. And the true cost was probably lower than that: http://crookedtimber.org/2011/03/21/cost-of-damage-to-wi-capitol-tiny-effects-of-lies-about-clean-up-costs-priceless/

@Randy1949 -

With the added security costs required because of death threats being made and the like, the total taxpayer cost for the Capitol occupation exceeded $8M.

And any socially responsible protest movement would have took up an ongoing collection during such protests to at least attempt to reimburse the state (people) for those costs. But alas, in the end, I don't recall any of the protests ever offering up a single dime!

In anyone's book, liberal or conservative - that's pretty darn selfish, period!

JRH-
I heard that the smell of Liberals is stuck in the marble and that the whole place will need to be torn down.

On another note, turns out that constitutional rights are not free. Maybe we should get rid of the rights, and then we wont have this problem. I am leaning towards Dictatorial rule.

Blah Blah Blah ... This Blah has been brought to you by Scooter Wanker. Get some new material. Same old rhetoric.

@JRH -- Oh, bull fiddle. That would be roughly $400,000 for sweepers and Goo Gone, and the remaining $7,600,000 for increased security. That's an awful lot of overtime worked by state troopers and other peace officers over one or two death threats.

@Randy1949 -

How much is a life worth to you exactly? What's the acceptable price for protecting a life to you - especially where there has been express and specific threats made against such lives in an environment of chaos? Apparently you don’t have a problem with the hundreds of millions we spend protecting the President and his family’s lives every year via the Secret Service. Why is Walker’s and state Republican’s lives worth so little to you, while Obama’s and his family’s lives are apparently worth so very much to you? Pretty hypocritical of you Randy1949!

It also still doesn't change the fact that these people didn't offer up a single dime to help cover the costs of THEIR actions! Not to mention that these same people damaged the original copy of our State's Constitution, which is now having to be repaired at the Milwaukee Public Museum? How much is that repair costing the taxpayers?

Again, the protestors were nothing more than very selfish people!

@JRH -- the only people personally responsible for any increased costs of security are the people who made the actual death threats. Merely disagreeing with our legislator's actions doesn't make us responsible for anything other than our normal collective costs of protecting our leaders, which I assume we do already.

Randy,

I believe JRH was referring to the cost of cleaning up the mess, not the cost of security.

I also highly doubt that the security costs were strictly attributed to the death threats. When you have throngs of people showing up anywhere, you have to have security. When you throw in the heated nature of this particular event (which lasted weeks and weeks), you'd be absolutely foolish not to provide a decent level of security. If some sort of skirmish had broken out (and as we've seen with OWS, that can happen readily) and their had not been enough security personnel to handle it there, the same folks screaming about there being an overabundance of it would have been screaming that Scott Walker purposely kept security at a low level so that chaos would ensue in order to make it reflect badly on the "movement".

It's always easy to be the Monday morning QB.

@Bob McBride -- as I said before, the final official cost of the capitol cleanup was $347,000 not the 'millions' PalmLady charged. If JRH was referring to only the costs of the cleanup, he was inflating his figures, as was she. So my original comment stands -- Bull fiddle.

PS -- Here is what JRH said: "With the added security costs required because of death threats being made and the like, the total taxpayer cost for the Capitol occupation exceeded $8M."

That's a lot of security. So who's getting overpaid here? Not the schoolteachers.

@Randy1949 -

My $8M figure was the overall cost that Capitol occupation cost taxpayers - cleanup, security, replacing broken doors, replacing broken windows, etc.

While you may think that law enforcement went overboard with security, such assumption is just flat out wrong. As Bob points out, anytime you have a large crowd, you always want added security. That’s police procedure 101. That’s why whenever you go to special events where large crowds gather, you always see extra police presence - Bradley Center events, Mecca Arena events, etc. And you especially want that extra presence when those crowds are unpredictable in nature, such as the capitol protestors were! Need I remind how they stormed and broke some doors after the lockdown ordered by the Walker administration? Or the broken windows? Or the damaged Constitution? Or the vandalized restrooms? Etc. The only difference is that at organized special events, those who attend actually do cover all of their own costs for added security and clean up via the ticket price.

I guess none of that bad stuff really happened, right? Or did the Koch Bros. employ plants that did all of those destructive things?

Also still doesn’t change the fact that despite having millions to fund recalls with, the protestors and their supporters couldn’t even offer up a nominal amount to cover those costs as a good-will symbolic gesture! Nothing but a bunch of lowlifes if you ask me!

JRH -- why don't you and Bob McBride reach a consensus about what your $8 million figure covered and get back to me?

@Randy1949 -

The libs claim that tens of thousands participated in the Capitol protests daily, right? Now imagine if they took an organized collection from each of those individuals of just $.50 a day to contribute towards the cost of security and clean up. They could have easily handed over a check in excess of $100k to put towards the clean up and security costs as a good faith gesture of showing some personal responsibility and respect to the taxpaying base as a whole.

But alas, it was more important to hand our fraudulent doctors notes so that teachers could fraudulently stage a sick-out, rip off the taxpayers, and be totally unfair to our kids, just so that they could protest at the Capitol.

Those are some pretty messed up priorities if you ask me and highly indicative of a very selfish attitude! How can you honestly not see it like that, as that’s how it was?

Randy, when in doubt, I'm right. I'm also correct.

Thank god a majority of Wisconsin is smarter than the majority in Ohio!

One question though Zelda – if the Koch Bros and evil rich Republicans have so much more money than everyone else because of their unfair control of government, as you claim, then how was it possible that pro-union supporters outspent the fiscally responsible people by a 3:1 margin over that Ohio ballot initiative?

@Zelda... you left out the fact that Intelligent Life showed itself in Mississippi where the TEAPublican proposed amendment for a "Personhood Amendment" was shot down.

A voter suppression law in Maine was rescinded also.
Them Dem Governor of Kentucky was re-elected.

A good night for the TEAPublicans. Yes, Scooter has probably soiled his undies tonight.

@Zelda and MrsPeel
Lets pretend Walker was not elected. I will give you a moment to compose yourselves.

Where would we have found the $3 Billion dollar shortfall left by the Doyle Administration? I will accept that some of his predecessors had a hand in creating a shortfall; however, it had to be corrected or the state would have gone Greece. and
Now where will Ohio find the money to pay for their shortfall?

And watching Fox News ignore it last night was hilarious. "Oh -- look at these pictures of cute kittens!"

@Randy1949 -

Fox News didn't ignore the Ohio vote. In fact, Bret Baier and team covered all of the election results for a full hour after Greta. They even interviewed a very jovial Trumka. While it wasn’t as much coverage as MS-NBC provided via the Ed Show, it certainly wasn’t merely ‘look at the pretty kittens,’ as you suggest.

What I found more interesting is that Fox gave fair coverage to the other issue on the Ohio ballot as well, the initiative rejecting Obamacare, while virtually no other cable news network even mentioned such. Clearly, MS-NBC is far more biased than Fox News could ever hope to be in its choice of coverage.

If you’re going to rip Randy1949, at least be fair and balanced with your rips!

@Angry White Dude -

I was thinking the exact same thing myself!

Oh, JRH -- that was a no vote to the individual mandate portion of the AHCA, not the entire thing. I'd probably have voted the same way, because the mandate is unfair without an affordable public option available.

@Randy1949 -

How exactly do the specifics of the vote at all change the FACT that Fox News covered both ballot initiatives while MS-NBC only covered the pro-union vote but really did completely ignore the anti-Obamacare vote?

I watch both networks nightly so I know what I’m talking about here. Do you?

@Zelda -

If Ford was so fair and great to his workers, then why did they unionize and why do you now support the unions?

Your hypocrisy on this one is clearly showing!

Because if they didn't they would be out of business, could not make payroll and employ a workforce. A business with no cash on hand is a dead one.

I am not against all taxes. We need to be protected either via military or police. We should have a fire department for public safety and some public infrastructure. We need a government (small) to ensure the country does not fall apart and to institute basic laws to protect the people. Taxes that are a benefit to all citizens.

The problem comes from anything that is geared toward a specific group of people. If we target the poor to benefit from the tax code, then some one must suffer. Since money doesn't grow on trees, it is coming out of some ones pocket. If we subsidize farmers because we are all sad to see the family farm disappear, then the some one must suffer a loss of money. Every tax aimed at a group hurts the other group.

"But they are rich, they can afford to lose it." That is subjective phrase. The rich spend in proportion to the poor. They don't make millions a year and then spend like they make 50K. Therefore, when you remove their money, you are taking money from a producer who would have profited from a sale the rich man would have made. Instead that money is going to some one who will never buy the object the rich man wanted. Hence, airplane producers feel a hit and layoff their employees.

"Buffett wants a higher income tax." I am sure he does, but he doesn't pay any income tax like us. Those super rich are living off investments that are taxed at a lower rate.

Liberals need to read the fine print on their own policies.

@Sam
Can you tell me what is destroyed?

Sam - How many public union employees will now be laid off in Ohio? How many were laid off in Wisconsin?

@Sam
In the states that require photo ID's to vote, do you proof that people have had their votes 'suppressed'?

In the 1930's unions served a purpose to save private sector employees from private sector employers. Since that time the government has installed numerous regulations (ie OSHA and child labor laws) that cover what unions were set up for.

HOWEVER, Walker is attacking PUBLIC sector unions. This is a completely DIFFERENT animal. Public sector unions work to subvert the tax payer (employer) buy using union dues to elect politicians that favor public unions. That way the unions can receive more from the government. In the PRIVATE sector the unions must work against the employer and battle for what they want. This usually results in a compromise between the employer and company (both sides must give something). Since the PUBLIC sector unions are using dues to elect those favorable to unions, they are no longer battling with the employer (tax payers). The tax payers representative (the elected official) is actually working for the union. Hence only the tax payer is forced to give something up. Walker equalized that playing field by limiting what the unions could bargain for. (By the way, the federal employee union has the same rights that Walker is allowing. Have you challenged Obama on that yet.)

Chicken Little was wrong,again;the Wisconsin sky didn't fall.

Although, I would say the jury is out on the net positive effect. So far, so good.

@Keith Best...C'mon, it's pure propaganda paid for by the government. Our tax dollars at work supporting the current power in office.

@Lyle -

You mean "pure propaganda paid for by the government" like this:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/economy/jobsact

BTW - www.itsworkingwisconsin.com is NOT paid for by the government.

I thought you were better than just perpetrating LIES as opposed to FACTS Lyle.

@Sam
You failed to answer my question. Instead you gave me an illogical emotional response that has no proof behind it.

How do these 'people' you are mentioning get to the voting locations? Based on your arguement they must be unable to do that also.

Again I will ask. Within the states that require a Photo ID to vote, there 14 of them, have there been problems with vote 'suppression'?

@SAM -

Would it make you happier if it was expanded to included all county court houses that are equipped to verify residence and take photos for passports as well? Or will you not be happy until Voter ID is just done away with all together so that you can once again bus people in from Illinois and Minnesota to vote in our elections?

And don't give us the ‘voter fraud doesn’t exist because there are only few if any prosecutions of such occuring’ line of crap. Using that same logic, there's few prosecutions for littering as well, so I guess that's proof that littering just doesn’t really happen either. And yet somehow there's always garbage in the ditch along my property - I guess it must have just materialized there, seeing as how littering and voter fraud just don’t exist because there are few prosecutions that one can point to, right?

Most polling places aren't polling places except for on election day, and most of the people working there are temporary employees. I don't see why we would allow the average poll worker (not an employee of the state) to verify identification and issue state ID.

Since the DMVs are already set up to make photo IDs and verify that people are who they claim they are, it makes sense to have the DMV issue photo IDs...

I'm not sure I understand your comment about many DMV locations being rural. Aren't voters in rural areas more likely to have a driver's license? After all, they don't exactly have access to bus and taxi services like those that live in the city...

@Sam
You are claiming people can't get to the DMV to get an ID. Please show me an ACTUAL example of a situtation that this has occured. All you keep telling me is the same story about how "people" (the generic term) won't be able to get ID's. You yet have to show proof of your point. You have no examples. My arguement is not hollow, because I can prove that 14 other states have a requirement for photo ID and they do not have the problem you are sighting. PLEASE provide actual real life example of a person whose vote was 'surpressed' because they could not get an ID. Telling me that there COULD be transportation issues is not an example, it is a claim. A claim, that I might add, is proven wrong since 14 other states have photo ID laws.

Homer Simpson
742 Evergreen Terrace
Springfield

@Terry –

Thanks for at least being one of the few commenting here to actually answer the question posed by the article in the first place and providing an analysis of your reasoning! I think that you and I were the only ones to actually do so with a supporting analysis, while AWD and Tiffany also at least answered the question posed. Everything else has been political and ideological based arguments about Walker’s agenda with some Koch Bro. conspiracy theories thrown in for good measure.

Cheers!

Mr. Hoffa, it's dangerous to dismiss the warnings about the Koch brothers as "conspiracy theories." Their activities and funding of Americans for Prosperity, Herman Cain, the Republican Governors Association, and direct campaign contributions to Scott Walker, etc. are well documented. They are pouring a fortune into changing the political complexion of this country.

Here's the latest, which I read the other day in the Guardian: the Koch brothers are creating a right wing data base. You may read about it yourself here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/07/koch-brothers-database-2012-election?INTCMP=SRCH

Sadly, the Koch brothers aren't a conspiracy theory like Area 51, Building 5, or the mafia took out a contract on President John F. Kennedy. No, these are real men, whose dad Fred was a founding member of the John Birch Society (you know, the group that believes that the Civil Rights Movement, U.S. involvement in Vietnam and water fluoridation were all communist plots). Whatever you may think about them, liberals, or need-to-know independents like me, don't dismiss the influence of the Koch brothers.

@Bren -

And the LDS Church maintains a huge genealogical archive and database on hundreds of millions of people all over the world. So what?

The Koch Bros. are two people. Ergo, they get two votes, one vote each, just like any other American. They don't have any more power than you or I via the power of the vote.

And why is it that the Koch Bros’ ideas are automatically bad, evil, or designed solely to line their own pockets further at the expense of everyone else? These are conspiracy theories that people have created to give their political enemies a face and a bank book so that people have something/someone to vilify.

It's quite sad, actually, when you stop and think about it.

If the majority decide that they agree with the ideology of the Koch Bros, well, that's called democracy, right? Why is it that their views and opinions don't get to count as anything less than evil just because they happen to be wealthy?

Come on Bren, you claim to be an independent thinker - then start thinking independently for a change! Otherwise, you must also be weary of those evil Mormons or they just may try and baptize some of your dead relatives without you even knowing about it! Oh, the humanity!!!

@JRH...Yes, of course the Nazis and Italian fascists' propaganda focused on American and Britain as plutocracies; this is a well known fact. But that doesn't negate the existence of the American Plutocracy and the American Oligarchy. If you wish, I can easily change my claim from plutocracy to oligarchy.

As far as I am concerned you can twist on the rope that is hanging the Koch Brothers as well as Soros, DeVosses, Princes, Bradleys, etc.Like most attorneys you look for the loopholes and finding none deny the legitimacy of the argument based on a non sequitur.

I can't force you to make the connections especially based on your predisposition of beliefs and adherence to a narrow views. I am an adherent to secular humanism and as such don't conform to your version of individuality or your interpretation of social order. The ideological war that Walker has started is clearly one that takes advantage of the economic crisis perpetrated by the corporate oligarchy.

You and other right wingers keep talking about the sacrifices they have made; what has been your sacrifice? I would be interested in hearing your particular horror stories.

The most intelligent thing I have read on here so far!

@JRH...You know that plutocracy and libertarianism are not mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive. By classic deffinition a plutocracy is rule by the wealthy few, while libertarians are focused on the ultimate sovereignty of the individual to live unrestricted without government intervention. Both plutocracy and libertarianism promotes self interest as a part of the natural order, as supported by "social darwinism". Philanthropy or altruism can be examined and supported as a self interested and self serving act.

Not all plutocrats are "evil", but plutocracy is tha antithesis of democracy. Living in a society ruled by the wealthy and worrying whether they have beneficent or malevalent intentions is no choice, but the a choice of fools to accept such as part of the natureal order.

@Lyle -

You stated "You are seriously mistaken. Plutocrats don't care abour (sic) anyone except themselves. Keep believing the American myth."

Thus, you believe that the Koch Bros are indeed plutocrats and that they don't care about anyone except themselves. But if that were true, then why have literally given away billions of dollars of their fortune to socially conscious charities? Such action is neither consistent or indicative of the claims you've made about the Koch Bros. In fact, since 2006, the Koch's have consistently ranked as two of the world's top 50 philanthropists.

Are you honestly being fair about the Koch's Lyle, or are you perpetrating LIES and purposefully distorting FACTS out of purely ideological concerns that support the mass propagation of a false conspiracy theory?

@JRH...Let's take a historical journey to the Roman Republic, a classic example of a plutocracy. The plutocrats provided the plebeians with bread, meat and wine. They built monumental buildings, roads, aqueducts, sewers and the games. All of this was done to promote a positive image and to control the power of the "mob". It can be argued that the Koch brothers are philanthropic for obvious social gain. I can't possibly know what their motivation is, but their political activities are obviously self interested to protect their plutocratic positions. You call it LIES, but what you call as lies another sees it at truth. What are the lies? For whatever lies you talk of, then produce the truth for examination.

@Lyle –

You claim that the Koch Bros “political activities are obviously self interested to protect their plutocratic positions.” And yet, you provide no proof of this other than conspiracy theories regarding their political activities. If they really wanted to be plutocrats, as you suggest, they’d continue to run for office and actually hold the power themselves, as David did back in the early ‘80’s, wouldn’t they? After all, why would they just put their money and trust in someone who could end up being a Brutus Albinus to their alleged Julius Caesar aspirations? That doesn’t make very much sense, does it?

What I see in their political activities is two guys that happen to be wealthy who “are focused on the ultimate sovereignty of the individual to live unrestricted without government intervention.” And just because they’re wealthy and hold such a political ideology, you’ve decided to knowingly and unfairly mischaracterize them as ‘plutocrats,’ and perpetuate it via propaganda conspiracy theories.

You know what, if we look at history, there’s another group of individuals who employed this exact same strategy against their ideological enemies in the Western World. You know who those people were, Lyle - Mr. Adolf Hitler and the Nazis! I’m shocked that you digress to the tactics of your former enemy to combat your newfound and self declared political enemy! AMAZING!!!

@JRH...First of all it is not all that positive to run for political office. If Dick Koch were to win he would be limited by the political office. Therefore, remaining behind the scenes provides more opportunity for control of the process. They carefully select who they will politically support. I am not speaking of any wild kind of conspiracy. The Koch Brothers's political activities and support are well documented by independent and non-partisan sources. By all definitions they meet the standards for the label as plutocrats.

The political right has continuously vilified anyone who does not agree with them politically, ethically or morally. It has taken on a whole new meaning in the state since Walker and the Republican legislature took office. If you are bringing the tactics of the Nazis in, then the political right is most closely following in their footsteps.The expediency of political actions have been justified completely on questionable economics. At least in Wisconsin there is an active opposition.

.

@Lyle -

"By all definitions they meet the standards for the label as plutocrats."

Give me an example of something they're pushing that qualifies as such vs the standard libertarian platform. You can't because it just doesn't exist without spinning it in such a way to conform to your cause and you know it, otherwise you would have given a concrete proof positive example by now!

"The expediency of political actions have been justified completely on questionable economics."

More like on models that have worked! Puerto Rico and Canada being a few examples of many out there!

And in their propaganda, the Nazis falsely labeled the U.S. as a plutocracy under FDR. Look it up.

Once again you forget that public unions are different than private unions.

@Schmidt -- Walker's 'lie' was that he never mentioned during his campaign his plan to end collective bargaining for certain public workers, which effectively caps the pay and benefit cuts they were already willing to agree to in the short term.

Randy, it lookslike you weren't paying attention. As County Ex. Governor Walker constantly battled the public employee unions but they figured they were too powerful and never compromised. The governor campaigned on making this state fiscally sound and that is what he did. If you would be so open minded and want to hear from Municipalities and School District officials themselves you can here: www.reforms.wi.gov

I don't live in Milwaukee County (which, by the way, went for Barrett rather than Walker) so I didn't know Scott Walker's every word and deed. I doubt the rest of the state did either, especially as he did not run on ending collective bargaining for public workers. This 'you should have known I was a union-buster before you voted me in' is disingenuous.

@Randy
How else would he have accomplushe what he said above? What were you expecting to happen? He would ask nicely and the unions would give him the consessions he wanted. Milwaukee Public Schools attempted to aks nicely if the unions would allow cuts and the unions said no. MPS ended up cutting a bunch of teachers. Evidently that would be a better solution for you.

What should have Walker have done to fix the problem? Where else should he have gotten $3 billion?

Not living in Milwaukee is a poor excuse. I never lived in IL, but I knew that Obama was a socialist. The papers above are from across the state. The problem Walker is facing is that everybody sees the need to cut government spending until it is their own government benefit that is affected.

For the final time, Scott Walker actually claimed he has campaigned on the issue of public union-busting: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/

"It’s not a tit for tat," Walker responded. "The simple matter is I campaigned on this all throughout the election. Anybody who says they are shocked on this has been asleep for the past two years."

Politifact rates that statement false. What more needs to be said?

@Randy1949
Please read the following article, pay close attention to the quotes that conveniently left out of the Politifact article. Including the one by a teachers union official discussing how they don't want collective bargain rights taken away if Walker is elected govenor.
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/23/133995779/weekly-standard-why-so-surprised-about-walker

I am a Koch brother

Take a stroll through Opensecrets.org and note the list of the top political donors. The Koch brothers are pretty far down the list, with all the top spots going to the labor unions...

...and the proposed rail system was neither good nor fast.

Here's the list. Which are the 'varied interests' that are keeping their names out of print? Actblue? SIEU? NEA? The Teamsters?
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

For someone that claims to be a 'lifelong independent voter that insists on thinking rather than following party line', you sure seem to parrot a lot of Democratic party talking points rather than thinking about the actual issues...

If you are the one throwing the 80% of the oil industry claim, why is it up to me to provide the proof? Where did you get your number from?

It is indeed surprising that a company that makes only $100 billion in annual revenues can own 80% of the oil industry. Exxon-Mobile has around $350 billion in annual revenues--how much of the oil industry to they own?

Don't waste your time on this one Dung. Sam will spout whatever crack pot idea comes to mind.

80% of the oil industry??? So, the Koch Bros must own all of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc. Hmmm... I wonder what OPEC would have to say about that.

SAM, here's some advice, as Hoffa's getting worried about you - lay off the crystal immediately!!!

Liberals trashing the Koch family - REALLY???

Oh man, I'm totally shocked right now!

@SAM -

So, who have you voted for in the past?

lol

Grandma SAM- Please explain to be becasue I am too young to know, but how does the Koch family own 80% of the oil industry?

Sincerely-
Grandson Steve

@SAM -

"And I am an educated voter when I exercise that right."

If the clearly biased and left leaning website http://www.commondreams.org is how you supposedly educate yourself, and the fact that you won't reveal to us that you vote Democratic in practically every election (only voting Republican when such candidates go unchallenged), then I've got news for you - you're really a liberal just claiming to be an independent.

If you were really an independent, then you’d realize the points that Schmidt0675 are trying to make to you, but alas, you continue with you Koch conspiracy theories!

@SAM -

You're honestly citing to the Daily Kos as being hard fact!?!?!?!?!?

Yep, you're definitely a liberal!

So what makes ALEC any worse than other groups like the Democratic party or the labor Unions? They have clear agendas and work to influence politicians to pass legislation that they favor...

That's easy. ALEC is for a narrow group of people -- the 1%, the Democrats are for the 99% of the people. Do you need me to tell you this?

@Keith
Right 99%. So the teachers unions doesn't only represent teachers?????

You are ignorant. Every political group is for a narrow cut of the population. Unless there is a group like "Citizens for Breathing", they all only represent a portion of the population.

So the opposition to ALEC is really based on opposition to their politics rather than the big conspiracy that some are making it out to be. The only difference is that you since agree with what the labor unions are trying to do, you don't mind the money they spend to buy candidates and elections...

What makes to think that Hoffa is a paid blogger? Is it because he claims to be a 'lifelong independent voter that insists on thinking rather than following party line', but continually posts comments that don't show much independent thought and follow exactly with party line talking points?

@CowDung
Nice. It is often the case with independents, it is simply a title that allows liberals to look down their nose at people. The proof is asking a simple question like, How is ALEC different from any union trying to push it pro-union agenda?

Why is their writing of sample legislation so problematic? It wouldn't surprise me at all if other groups submitted sample legislation to elected officials with the hopes of it being introduced 'as is'. Bills are always changed in committee before they come under consideration on the floor of the legislature, and then subject to further changes after floor debate, so I guess I don't see what the big issue is...

Holding a single position that is out of line with the stereotypical liberal position does not make one an 'independent'...

@Schmidt0675...United Way!

@Lyle

That is an optional program. The union dues were not and that is what the unions were fighting against.

James.

http://folkbum.blogspot.com/2011/11/most-important-table-in-todays-wasda.html

Thursday, November 10, 2011
The most important table in today's WASDA survey
by folkbum

The key part of the survey for me, though it's not mentioned Tom Tolan's write-up, is that it does account for whether school districts were bound by contract extensions or instead had full access to the "tools" that Walker and Republicans claimed would help schools balance their budgets without cutting staff or programs. The survey's finding? "Differences between districts that had contracts compared to those without union contracts were not statistically significant." In table form (click to embiggen):

The report shows that in or out of contract, most districts cut positions and that, in fact, districts without contracts saw higher student-teacher ratios as well as a faster increase in the student-teacher ratios. In other words, the districts with the greatest flexibility to use Walker's "tools" were the districts with the largest and fastest-growing class sizes.

...

That's the three-year trend for job losses in Wisconsin schools. Combined with predictions from districts that next year's cuts will be as deep or deeper, we're looking at 10,000 jobs lost in public education between 2009 and 2013. That's just devastating.

Please read this as it ia important supplement to the MJS story: (great graphics also)

@Say What?

What in the video represented "beliefs" and "feelings" over "facts" per say? And what statistics in the video were "manipulated" exactly?

Please, show specifically where the video is wrong, why it's wrong, and what the correct fact would be.

How's about hearing from School Distict and Municipal officials themselves..... www.reforms.wi.gov
touting how the reforms are working.

And what of the DPI report showing the law's failures? If students are getting less contact from teachers, if programs are getting cut, I would find it hard to believe that school quality is going to get better.

I agree, I just think that he will be important for different reasons.

All historians will have to do is compare the financial downfall of Illinois, who chose to do the exact opposite of Gov. Walker. FOOLS!

ha ha.

The only thing he will be remembered for is being the FIRST GOVERNOR TO BE RECALLED.

Cheers.

@Morninmist Same -

You can stop posting all of your cut and paste messages from your liberal email/facebook groups - no one's buying it!

@ Dave Koven
To what extent do you limit lobbying? If you remove the fluff, isn't every donation made to a candidate a form of lobbying? I donate, not because I have extra money to blow; but because I want a candidate that will do what I want. It is my right to support the person I want. I am curious to see what your system would look like.

@Dave Koven

Where to start?

Who assembles these books? The government? How are we to trust the information in that book. Lets assume political party X is in control, what prevents them from assembling a pro-X booklet. They could do this without lying, by simply omitting certain items or adding items. For instance, lets say a bill was offered by party X suggesting that we should collect 100% income tax; but it never makes it out of conference and therefore it is never voted on. Should be included in your booklet? Who decides, because if I am voting for party Y, that seems very important.

Why would it be the patriotic duty to read the booklet; yet, you have no patriotic duty to research candidates today? I knew what Walker was going to do. I knew how Obama was going to govern. I can understand how Barrett will be as Mayor. If anything during the last election surprises you, that is your own fault. Especially a Republican. I think the liberals told us that Walker would everything evil including killing our school children to save tax money. To prove my point, please read the following article explaining (with quotes) that Wisconsin knew what Walker was going to do.
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/23/133995779/weekly-standard-why-so-surprised-about-walker

Lastly, removing the effects of money (any donations) from politics would be like trying to remove sex from the brain of a 16yr old boy.

I must be an idiot, so I need some help on this. How do you have a self reliant country that is not dependent on a government. Go back to subsistence living and bartering?

@ Say What
The simple fact that are unable to see a government without a self reliant population, explains everything. Of course, in order for a country to exist it most organize a central military, it must institute laws for equal protection, it must control inter-state commerce to ensure states can't power grab, and it must have a central body to handle relations with foreign countries. EVERYTHING else should be dealt with at the local level allowing individual communities to decide the level of government involvement. That is gone, we now have a top heavy government probing every corner of a persons life creating programs that benefit narrow section of the population. Hence the creation of a dependent class.

When has this country ever only had subsistence living, we have always had banks and bank notes/money. Bartering, really? Have you ever been on craigs list?

@Grandma SAM
I like. Might suggest a one minor changes.

#2 - We reverse it. We eliminate the social security system and make all retirement a personal responsibility.

Otherwise I am all for it. Why can't we circulate this vs this stupid recall? This would do more good and a republican controlled government is much more likely to make these changes.

Does it make a difference if it was that crazy liberal prankster and millionaire, Warren Buffet, that said this??

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/2011/10/28/the-warren-buffett-chain-letter/

SAM:

This list of "fixes" was posted many times before. Weren't they part of a 'proposed 28th Amendment' scam e-mail, where most of the claims were shown to be false. Congress does participate in Social Security, Congress does pay for their health insurance and are in the same plan as other federal employees, congress is not exempt from laws that are imposed on the American people, Congress pays into the civil service retirement and disability fund, etc.

@Lyle Ruble...good morning. Just keep your eye on the fiscal state of Illinois vs. Wisconsin as their governor chose the opposite direction of our governor, to address the crisis. We'll see who reaps what.

Lyle, your argument would be akin to blaming the folks at state fair for the incident that occurred there over the summer.

People choose to react in a certain fashion based on what they either get out of it at the moment or, if premeditated, what they perceive they'll get out of it in the future. In this case, its the latter. The state has not exploded, the polarization in this state is no greater than it has been for years, it's just risen to the surface because one side of the equation, that side which is dependent, directly, on the government for its money, feels threatened because they are coming face to face with those inevitable facts that those of us in the private sector have been dealing with for years. The days of the gravy train and easy money are past us. This reaction on the part of government employees and those dependent on the government for hand outs it a natural one, however it will not put off the inevitable indefinitely.

If you think what Walker's doing is bad, recall him and see what the future brings. You will live to see a day when you look back at the modest concessions Walker has implemented and view them as completely reasonable and mild by comparison.

@Lyle -

"The way we have funded our government has always been significantly different."

Let's see, Illinois and Wisconsin both use taxes and user fees in providing their respective governments with a revenue stream. How exactly is it “significantly different," as you've asserted?

Oh, I forgot, Doyle was printing counterfeit money in the basement of the Capitol! Silly me, how could I have forgotten about that?

@Hudson Resident...I reiterate what I said to Keith Best, WE ARE NOT ILLINOIS! Scott Walker hasn't shown any courage in picking the "low hanging fruit". He just went back to the UW System and cut them another $174 million. He's also cutting $500 million away from Badger Care, eliminating the eligibility of 65,000 citizens, including 30,000 low income children.

The pension plan you are so critical of is fully funded, owned by the employees. If you don't believe it ask Tommy Thompson after he raided it for $300 million and the courts ruled against him. The money funding the pension has always been from the employees themselves by way of a delayed compensation plan. Walker reduced state employees pay by 5.8% to maintain the minimum contribution to the plan and the employees have had to contribute 5.8% of current compensation. Total low to current compensation 11.6%. Couple that with the 6,8 increase in health car contributions the total is 18.2%. Who else in the state in the last year have had that kind of pay cut?

Who else has had that kind of pay cut? I suspect that a large number of people that had worked in the private sector but are now unemployed have taken at least that level of pay cut...

Not to mention that over the past 4-5 years, many of those who are still employed in the private sector have taken "pay cuts" (actual and in the form of an increase in their share of medical costs) that cumulatively exceed that 18.2% figure you quote by a significant margin, Lyle. There's no logical reason for public employees to assume they're immune from the effects of a faltering economy, nor that efforts to right the ship shouldn't include cuts for them as well as for others.

None of this was of the least concern to them until they started to feel the effects. Now it's the end of the world and simply listening to the arguments used to back up the howling shows that not only were they not concerned, they weren't even aware of what's been going on. That's why the arguments largely fall on deaf ears, Lyle.

@Lyle Ruble.... The 6.8% employee healthcare contribution is not taken as a percent of salary, but only of the actual cost of the healthcare premium. And it would be from pre-tax dollars too. The pre-tax dollars calculation applies to the pension contributions as well.
So, I think total all in, your 18.2% calculation, is more in the 6% range.

@Jay Sykes...Since the state cut their contribution to the pension fund by 5.8% delayed compensation and the employee has to make up the 5.8% from current compensation, the net loss is 11.6% compensation; 5.8% current and 5.8% deferred. Most public employees are not upset with the increase in healthcare contributions since healthcare is going up at double digit rates.

@Lyle Ruble.... The 6.8% employee healthcare contribution is not taken as a percent of salary, but only of the actual cost of the healthcare premium. And it would be from pre-tax dollars too. The pre-tax dollars calculation applies to the pension contributions as well.
So, I think total all in, your 18.2% calculation, is more in the 9% range.

@Lyle Ruble... Sorry about the typo (6 v. 9). The 5.8 is in the 4% range, net of the tax effect.

@Lyle -

You know as well as anyone else that these so-called "low income children" being cut from BadgerCare are in reality children who come from families that can afford to provide their own children with healthcare by adding them as dependents to their parent's policies. In essence, all Walker's doing here is correcting something was being abused by people because of a technicality. It’s called taking personal responsibility for your children. I know that’s probably a new concept for you, so take some time to let it soak in if needed.

And here's a little secret I'm going to let you in on. Economy goes sour = tax revenues go down = not enough money to continue paying public employees at same level = either raise taxes, borrow money, or lower public employee pay. It’s pretty simple economics, and certainly not rocket science.

That's why when you choose to work in the public sector, you're called a 'public servant.' You accept the forgone risk that your compensation could go up or down depending upon the overall health of the tax base from which your compensation is being drawn from and what is decided by the duly elected representative political leadership.

And if you want to talk about illegally raiding segregated funds, let's not forget how Doyle attempted to follow in Tommy's footsteps and also got shut down - one more thing that Doyle left unresolved that Walker is now having to deal with.

Let’s be fair and honest here, shall we?

@Morninmist Same -

First the Daily Kos and now Mother Jones. It's nothing but clearly biased sources from you, isn't it?

Give it up already and give us all a break!

@Morninmist Same -

And now you're throwing in the CapTimes!!!

What kind of person continuously cites to clearly biased sources as representing fact? Only someone who's completely closed-minded or brainwashed!

Someone definitely needs to gain some balance and perspective in their life!

As James R Hoffa says:

"What kind of person continuously cites to clearly biased sources as representing fact? Only someone who's completely closed-minded or brainwashed!"

Cheers.

Good point. Then why can't I get an answer to an NPR posting pointing out how a union representative knew Walker was going to enact collective barganing reform before he was elected. Which would go against a lot of you claiming that he lied during his campaign as a way to justify the recall.

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/23/133995779/weekly-standard-why-so-surprised-about-walker

PS - NPR leans liberal.

@Schmidt0675...C'mon, the Weekly Standard? That's Bill Kristol's conservative rag. If you read the article carefully there was disagreement about the fact that Walker did not specifically state that he planned to remove collective bargaining

@Lyle

But reposted on NPR. Which could be the anti Weekly Standard.

Whether some disagree or not. The union members are quoted in saying they expected this.

@Morninmist Same---The sources I cite are videos of actual school district and municipal officials stating what is happening in their operations. How can they be biased sources??? Perhaps if you had the guts to actual do some investigation and check it out for yourself instead of offering weak denials, you would not be so quick with baseless accusations.

@Lyle -

It doesn't matter how its funded, as it's all a part of the total compensation package provided by the government (taxpayers). And as I explained to you before, when the overall economy goes south, as it has been for the last 3+ years now, the tax base suffers and revenues go down. When revenues go down, the state doesn't have as much money to pay public sector workers. So, you're faced with a choice - borrow the money, raise taxes, or cut pay.

Walker did campaign on the compensation cuts, the people voted, and it's clear that the people wanted to lower the pay for public sector workers this time as opposed to borrowing money or raising taxes. That’s a risk one takes when choosing to go into public sector employment.

I can't make it any easier than that. End of story!

Oh Schmidt

You are beyond silly!! Instilling LIES in people is not a good character trait to have.

@Morninmist Same -

If you honestly believed that, you wouldn't be posting all of your crap that derives from clearly biased sources, would you?

The smart money is betting that the Koch brothers get all the blame. Although, I suppose they might be considered as part of the 'Evil GOP conspirators' category...

HA HA So you are a victim also. Poor thing.

Cheers.

PS: Midnight awaits.

@Schmidt0675 -

Morninmist Same already showed us who the left was going to blame for the failure of the recall effort - Koch Bros paid conspirators who act as liberals in collecting signatures but then burn the petition sheets in their home fireplaces.

They already have it all figured out in attempting to further polarize and divide the state before the recall is even given a chance to fail.

Welcome to the leftist strategy!

I'd be curious to see the losses or teachers and increase in class sizes were made better or worse by Walker's reforms. My local district was facing budget shortfalls before the Walker reforms, but ended up being able to hire 22 new teachers to replace the 10 that had retired.

Not sure of the percentages, but at the time Patch reported that the biggest savings being seen were due to the budget repair bill, not because of the referendum...

Schmidt0675 -

That's really all that Morninmist Same does - cut and paste propaganda!

I've yet to see MS come up with an original analysis or conclusion of his/her own. Honestly, I think that MS has been brainwashed by only ever considering biased sources of information and perceiving them as being fact.

What can we say, it does happen to some people I guess.

Joey---What is wrong with proving you are who you say you are when voting? Are you saying some people are too stupid to get a photo ID?

The next big recall scandal to break will be exposing the DPW’s secret plans to bus people in from out-of-state and provide them with residency in WI for 28 days for the sole purpose of having them vote against Walker in the recall election, if one is held.

The plans are already in the works – check it out:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/vicki-mckenna/organized-election-fraud-recall-walker-organizers-coming-in-from-ohio-to-take-ad/10150393452513150

Don’t think it’s possible, they did it in the last election and some of their less intelligent transplants got caught – check it out:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/133914803.html

Why do you think the DPW is pushing the recall effort at this time? Because they hope that can get the recall election scheduled before Voter ID goes into effect so they can once again use the transplant tactic!

At least they won’t be able to mess with the general election next November! Thank Walker and the Republicans for Voter ID!!!

@Schmidt0675...Were you in Mississippi and Alabama in 1965? The comparison is not outrageous nor insulting to those who suffered under segregation and "Jim Crowe". Statutory overreaching is directed at those who are most likely to vote for progressive candidates. I still maintain that a voter registration card is all that is needed with one's signature. At the poll the voter signs in and the two signatures are compared. What you and others seem to not understand is that not every potential voter has a birth certificate or access to one. Many people born in the deep south may or may not have one.

You comment about nothing has been provided to indicate that something bad will occur is an unrealistic statement. How can you produce proof before the fact when proof can only be produced after the fact.

If you check your state history, this is the first time in, I think, six decades where the government has been under one party control during the census. Redistricting has been settled in the courts and through arbitration.

@Lyle... Is the WI-voter-ID law being challenged as a violation of the Federal Civil Rights Act?

@Jane -

Is it really democracy in action for 540,000 people to try and subvert the will of 1,128,941 people that voted for Walker in the general election?

@JRH...Of course it's democracy in action. Walker should have considered what the consequences would be of his actions before he did them. If anyone is responsible for the subversion it is him. He was upset in college because he didn't win the election, but he subverted that election with his unethical actions.

@Lyle -

So again, your restricting a politician's ability to be dynamic once in office. What good does that do exactly? And why is that other politicians appear to be held to a differing standard than the one you’re holding Walker to?

Doyle made an express promise during his campaign that he wouldn’t raise taxes, right? Forget recall, he should have been impeached! Why no outrage over Doyle’s blatant LIE? You claim that it was Walker’s plan all along to dismantle the unions, well, don’t you think it was really Doyle’s plan all along to raise taxes?

You’re not very consistent Lyle.

@JRH...Inconsistency, you're the one mentioning first Obama, George HW and then Doyle, your spinning out of control. Walker stands alone and comparisons are incompatible. Maybe you want to bring Tommy Thompson in or Scott McCallum. talk about hypocrisies, the merry-go=round you're riding is making me dizzy..

@Lyle -

How else do you expect me to keep you in check, especially when AWD's not around!

The disaster that was Big Daddy Doyle is all Ed Thompson's fault! Although I usually support third party and independents, I did vote for McCallum in 2002.

@Bob McBride...Good morning my friend. Glad to see you're still breathing and the grey cells are working. Yes, you could argue that, but recall is in our constitution as a check against uni-directional overreach and a power grab. The right probably should have mounted a recall against Doyle, but you didn't.

Morning Lyle - No, I abhor that kind of overreach on either side of the aisle. Change of course, if desirable, is possible by making use of the regular election cycle and not subjecting the populace to a divisive and expensive recall campaign. As evidenced by the very administration you wish to unseat due to....oh, let's call it impatience. It's still early in the morning, early in the week, and I'm trying to be nice.

@Bob McBride...Don't hold that anger in, it's not good for your health.

I rarely get angry and if I do it's usually over the little stuff. Frustrated? Sure, who wouldn't be? We've got an entire segment of society that just woke up, Rip Van Winkle style, and figured out life is no longer what it once was. Their reaction is to attempt brute force time travel back to the good old days of obliviousness in their public sector cocoon.

@Bob McBride....Of course we both know it will never go back to the "good ole days". It will take awhile to find the new normal.

The new normal is now, Lyle.

@Schmidt0675...I have to admit your response is a fair criticism and challenge. As far as the outside interests organizing the recall of the governor, I can attest that it is strictly a grassroots movement now receiving widespread support. Outside interests are obvious with so much on line in 2012. The political left and right has targeted Wisconsin as a must win state. That's going to mean unprecedented truckloads of money coming into the state.

In regards to what I am referring to in overreach is the changes in state government that were either not needed or the changes have gone beyond reasonable levels. I am extremely concerned that the state legislature has freely given over so much power to the executive branch. Much of the oversight function of the legislature has been abdicated to governor and his appointees. For example; giving the power to the Secretary of Health the right to shut down or significantly alter the programs. The Secretary of Health has just announced a cut of $500 million to Badger Care without the full legislature taking up the changes. Also, the legislature has allowed a change in the civil service to allow political appointees to take over key roles such as departmental general counsels. It has been one after another power shifts. The legislature is quickly creating the strongest chief executive in the U.S.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. That's a common phrase to illustrate change that doesn't need to be made. (continued)

@Schmidt0675...(continued) The state public workers were not out of control and the system was working well. The state workers were taking pay cuts and don't forget the 16 furlough days they suffered through. The administration could have accomplished the same outcome without essentially destroying the collective bargaining process. It has already led to many abuses by management in agencies. workers are now fearful of pointing out abuses or grieving actions by management since they no longer have union representation and must hire attorneys to protect their interests. In addition, agency policies and procedures that were defined by over fifty years of collective bargaining have not been replaced. The door is wide open when staff reductions occur for the oldest, most expensive and the most experienced to be laid off first, severely impacting these older workers and the capability of their various agencies. This is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Just because other states have done something doesn't necessarily make it right for Wisconsin. The voter ID is a prime example. There was no clear need to protect the state from voter fraud. We went from a state where voting was relative pain free process to one of the eighth most restrictive voter ID requirements in the US. As of now there is a lawsuit filed to challenge it. This is just another example of overreach.

@Hudson Resident.. I think you are clearly misreading what is going on. You need to research more and come to understand how the EFT works. The state is the last guarantor of the Fixed Benefit Program. Wisconsin is rock solid and is fully funded. It has weathered financial declines well and looks good into the future. By the way the retirement fund is fully funded by the employees themselves through a delayed compensation system.

@235301...Actually the recall process is the ultimate exercise of democracy. This process is a orderly means for holding in office politician's feet to the fire. This is our equivalent to a palimentary systems no confidence vote. Some misdirections need to be corrected before the natural term takes it course.

@ Lyle - this recall process really isn't the ultimate in democracy. If it was, students that go to colleges in our state that do not live here would not be able to sign a recall petition. Really, only citizens of Wisconsin should be able to do that. Or even, should only be able to sign one for their senator. Signing a recall petition and then not being able to vote in that election is somewhat two-handed. As far as recalling because he did not tell everyone what he was doing ahead of time, please quote me one politician who told everything he was doing ahead of time, and then who did everything they said they were going to do. I think you shall be working a long time on this answer. First of, I or anyone else with a job and family do not have the time to listen to every possible thing that every politician achieves to do during election time.
As far as the recall election and the waste of money. So the democrats take office if your recall works, and they give back bargaining rights, then do the republicans start a recall because they don't like what the democratic governor did? I see a very bad precedent being set here.

@Lyle: Don't p*ss down my leg and then tell me it's raining. Let's call a spade a spade: the Democrats and the unions are destroying the electoral process. They are trying to turn Wisconsin into a clone of Illinois. I can't wait for all the graft and corruption that will come with it. I can't wait to bid on some state work here where I have to slide some union or government official $$$s just to even bid on a project.

@Concerned about being united...You aren't making much sense about the students signing the recall petitions. All signatures will be verified against voter roles. This is precisely why they'll have to get a couple hundred thousand extra signatures because of the number of signatures that will be challenged and rejected.

Why would you need to put out an argument that requires to state that you want me to name one politician who has said what they would do before taking office. That would only be relevant at the beginning of an elected term since conditions arise further into the term that can't be anticipated. This is clearly not the case with the governor. His intent was only clear after the fact. He didn't disclose his intent to bust the unions. In my book that is deception.

I don't want to be overly critical, but your avoiding responsibility by claiming that your job and family makes you too busy to stay informed. How do you decide who to vote for; 30 second sound bites? Or are you one of those who is so committed to a political party that you just vote single party regardless whose running?

Yes, a recall is an excess expense, but how much is it worth to keep our politicians honest and transparent?

@235301...WE are already up to our eyes in graft and corruption. It's called campaign contributions.

@Schmidt0675...How can you in good conscious oppose people the access to healthcare? How are they supposed to access healthcare when even middle income people are having problems with access to healthcare? Medicare as an example doesn't destroy the elder citizen's desire to improve their lives. Morally, you are taking an indefensible position and you're clearly practicing "pocket book morality". A universal healthcare system would eliminate all these problems and significantly reduce costs just as in Europe. They are healthier and live longer than Americans with our current healthcare system.

@Lyle -

The federal government is largely un-unionized, and yet, you don't see the fed mis-treating its employees to the point where grievances are running rampant and everyone needs to hire a lawyer, do you?

That's because the government employees have the same rights to vote for their political representatives or even to organize and lobby politicians for their interests (ie - professional associations, etc.) as anyone else.

Just because the public sector unions may have been rendered virtually powerless doesn’t mean that those people are now without power or that they will be abused, does it?

Let’s be real here.

@JRH...You know that for any given agency in the Federal Government, they have more workplace rules than you can shake a stick at. They didn't have collective bargaining agreements to set the rules and they developed more equable rules. The problem we currently have is that many of the state agencies that had the agreements no longer have the guidelines and are having to start from scratch. Many got a late start and are still working on them. My wife's agency is one without clearly defined workplace rules and expectations; abuses are occurring as I write. It is having a negative effect on the employee's morale and has cut into effectiveness of job performance. The state she worked in before Wisconsin didn't have a union and developed regulations, policies and procedures much like the federal government did. The lack of such P&P is a transition cost we're currently paying. Rates of retirements and people just quitting has climbed to unacceptable levels leaving many agencies and departments short staffed. It won't be long until services begin to suffer and in some cases it is, but has not made it into public attention.

@Lyle... I think the most important point you make is the one about employee moral. I found, having done more than one business turn-around, the easiest thing is turning the numbers in the right direction and the hardest is getting the moral level on the right path. While the comp package costs were clearly way out of line for educators, it is not quite so clear for all other state & local government employees. Walker painted with a wide, wide, brush(roller), when a trim bush may have worked. I don't know if employee moral can return under Walker.

@Jay Sykes...The state public employees were clearly caught up in the reaction to the teachers' union. I've been trying to make it clear that not all the unions were equal. You're right about the morale issue. Most of the state employees weren't real happy with Doyle either. Thanks for keeping and open mind.

@Schmidt0675...Your the kind of guy I would want with me in combat; no mater what you won't give up. I am not talking about those types of handbooks. Let me give you an example: case management for social workers is very important. Milwaukee County didn't manage their child abuse and foster care cases properly. Subsequently the state took over the program and established good case management policy and procedures. This was done in conjunction with the provisions of a Federal Law Suit Agreement, the State Division of Health and Human Services and the Local employee's union. Now things like case management standards, which were covered in the collective bargaining agreement, no longer exists. These are the issues that are waiting to be addressed.

I don't know where you get your information about healthcare in other countries, but you are terribly misinformed. The social democracies of Europe have very effective healthcare and it's cheaper than ours. The only reason people leave someplace like Canada and seek services in the U.S. is that they don't want to wait for elective surgeries. Also, there are some procedures that aren't available there, but general healthcare is superior. If you looked at the trillions spent on healthcare annually, then there is more than enough money to fund such a program. One important savings is the reduction of administrative costs for healthcare dollar. Universal healthcare is somewhere between 5 - 7%, private 20 - 30%.

I'm with Lyle on the universal health care issue - but it must be done right. And Obamacare is definitely NOT doing it right, as even Lyle has admitted to.

Even Lee Iacocca supports government provided universal health care as way of keeping health care costs reasonable for all - but not necessarily government run universal health care.

Instead, the government should set up a multi-tude of GSE's that transition to a mix of private and public ownership, reasonably but NOT unduly overly regulated by the fed, to run the universal health care system.

But definitely not Obamacare which is an ‘obama-nation!!!’

It rewards the rich to keep taxes from increasing? I thought the biggest complaint from the left was that the rich aren't even paying taxes these days.

Something doesn't seem to be adding up here--keeping taxes in check would seem to be beneficial for us middle class taxpayers...

OK, I'll play along. How exactly is the GOP stealing from the middle class?

Are you just repeating yourself now?

Is there an echo in this thread?

@CD: No, it's just Paul soothing himself with a repetitive action. When you have a small child that does this you have them evaluated so that they can be given the appropriate treatment. Just saying.

What are the tax rates that the 'rich' pay and what are the tax rates that the 'middle class' pays? What legislation did Walker pass that bumped up the tax rates for the middle class and decreased them for the rich?

I believe according to the IRS study the "Rich" pay about 15% of gross and the average person of income of $100,000 or less pays about 25% of their gross. I would have to go back and find that info to be sure. Any ideas on what walker has done?
In Wisconsin for instance. If we were in such a financial crisis why did Walker and the Corporations pass a larger budget than Doyles? And then removed 1.6 billion from K-12 education. 500 million from Higher education. 900 million from other programs. While just shifting the money to themselves. And as you can see in the link above and recent history this does not create jobs. In fact according to the state we still lost 9700 jobs last month.

So Scott Walker creates tax policy for the IRS now?

How much money are you claiming that Walker shifted to himself? Did he write himself a government check or did he just embezzle cash?

Your article is simplistic BS. Why keep reposting it like it matters in this debate? There is no correlation between the prosperity of the Clinton era and Bush era via tax rates. The correlation is:

1) The Clinton years were an untethered bubble. We had the internet, automation and Y2K exploding. I was there. I was making arse loads of money off the bubble. I knew it was a bubble at the time so instead of buying stocks on margin or putting $30k media rooms in my house I was plowing it into financial vehicles that would appreciate. Clinton basks in the glow of the financial times, not by his own actions.
2) Conversely, Bush suffered from 9/11 and the repeal of Glass-Steagall(reminder: the repeal of Glass-Steagall occurred under Clinton). (Oh and reminder: Clinton had a clear shot at Bin Laden and didn't pull the trigger). The repeal of Glass-Steagall is the single most disastrous financial decision in decades. We are all paying for this today. Now, in my mind Bush wasn't the sharpest tool in the box but to point fingers Clinton this, Bush that, is BS.

Anyone pointing fingers right now is wasting their time. Get off your arse and start driving solutions. Stop listening to the talking points from Huffington, Rachel Maddow, Limbaugh or O'reilly.

Can you take that data set one more step and post the current numbers that we have under Obama?

My argument is the responsible party. It was Republicans controlling both houses that gave Clinton those numbers. My guess If he had the Dem control that Obama had, the numbers that Cow is looking for would mirror what Clinton actually wanted.

Bush was a strong leader and a strong spender. I won't argue that. However, if you take strong conservative policy it would look more like Clinton. What Clinton got was different then what Clinton wanted. The best thing he did for the country was play with his interns rather then the economy. The following link better illustrates my point the party that controls congress is a better indicator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_Debt_1901-2010_.jpg

Here is another good example debt via way of debt ceiling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Public_Debt_Ceiling_1981-2010.png

Bush deregulated the banks? Excuse me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

Glass-Steagall repeal happened under Clinton. That is the root cause of the pain we've experienced over the last few years.

Get your facts straight.

Let's also look at further facts:
-The great economic expansion that happened under Clinton was driven by automation, the internet and one cannot underestimate the Y2K issue(everyone forgets about that one because it became a non-issue at the end of the day).
-The economic pain for the early Bush years came from 9/11 and internet bubble finally popping(yes, this bubble made Clinton look really good but in the end Bush got to pay for it).
-Then with the leash off the dog so to speak with the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the banks and IB got involved in all kinds of financial vehicles they shouldn't have and voila, the state we're in now.

The point is all this finger pointing of Bush did this, Clinton did that and Obama can't be blamed for any of it is all wasting energy and delaying any fruitful fixes for the problems. We're seeing this now in Congress. Everyone wants to point fingers and no one wants to get a deal done if it means compromising.

It's not even close to being better...

http://factcheck.org/Images/image/2011/Articles/Tax%20or%20Spend/Outlays%20vs%20Revenues%20Since%201930%281%29.png

This link has a graph of deficit vs GDP from 1900 to 2010, Obama's numbers are way worse...

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=1900_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US%20Federal%20Deficit%20As%20Percent%20Of%20GDP&state=US&color=c&local=s%23copypaste

Yes, poor babies. The guy yelled at them, grabbed their camera, threatened to throw it on the ground, gave it back to them, jumped in his pickup truck and took off. It's a jungle out there.

When you do everything in your power to attempt to keep the entire state at a fever pitch for 11 months, eventually a few folks are gonna snap at the thought of their vote in the last election being invalidated by a bunch of sore losers.

You clowns brought the temper tantrum and the anti-social behavior, don't be surprised when some of it flies back atcha.

@Bob McBride...You were highly critical of in your face tactics used by the unionists last spring. now it's OK? Where's the Old Bob that I've come to know and love?

No, it's not okay Lyle, but to act as if it's something completely out of the realm of a situation fomented by the very people now out collecting signatures is ludicrous to say the least.

What do you expect, Lyle? What did I warn you was the likely outcome the very day that this recall was launched and people started showing up at Walker's house in Wauwatosa? I said it was gonna get ugly and that your side brought this on yourselves by "taking it to the streets". To be outraged over some near senior citizen losing his cool for a few and barking at some recall workers is the epitome of hypocrisy .

@Bob McBride...You won't get any argument from me about the "over the top" actions of the past. I also expect passions to be high and I acknowledge your earlier comment. What is different is that now the confrontations are directed and personal. The incident in Brookfield was not a senior citizen, but a young middle aged male who sought out the petitioners and then aggressively confronted them. This is a highly dangerous behavior. It is fortunate that neither party was armed or it could have escalated into a tragedy. Those of us who don't support such aggressive action should vigorously speak out against it. If Governor Walker would publicly and vociferously condemn such confrontations, I think it would molllify some of the passion from the more extreme right.

Has the head of the Democratic minority in the Senate or, for that matter, anyone speaking in an official capacity for the Democratic party condemned the infamous beer pouring incident in Madision that by, your definition, was directed and personal? I'm not aware of it.

Again, there's this double standard for everything.

This entire atmosphere that surrounds us was initiated by the folks who just couldn't handle defeat in the 2010 election. Time after time, similarities between what Walker has done and what has occurred in previous administrations is pointed out, but for some reason that never rose to the level of this all out assault on our election process. There's no solid factual basis for this, it's been ginned up by the left to a fever pitch and we've been under this cloud of chicken-little histrionics so long that it's become the new norm.

There is absolutely nothing Scott Walker has done that warrants this, there's no factual data anyone can point to, it's all based on projection and it's been packaged by the merchants of fear on the left as a method of tugging at the heartstrings of parents who still buy, even after all the obvious display of self-interest, that this is somehow "all about the children". It's nonsense, but you guys are the undisputed masters of it and for any of you to complain about some logically expected blow-back is, as I said before, the absolute height of hypocrisy.

And how about you cut the crap and admit you're as biased, partisan, and capable of making uncivil remarks as is anyone, Nick?

You also have blind spots the side of a barn, no particular understanding that you've demonstrated so far of the actual problems facing this country and where they really originate and seem to think what you do perceive as the major problems can be properly addressed by a bunch of dead white guys whose heads would explode if they spent one hour in today's world.

Not to mention that you no doubt listen to TMJ a heck of a lot more than I do. Stop feeding your own hate and listen to NPR like I do. A couple of hours of "This American Life" per week would relieve the angst and, perhaps, allow you to focus.

@Nick
I would point to the Doyle Administration, the first two years of the Obama Administration and ask; why were 'Principled negotiations with no absolutism' through out the window to advance the political agenda of both of those administrations? A time when 'The "might makes right argument" doesn't play well, since the approach is to keep everyone else but "your peeps" DOWN', subject to some mythic socialist effect that has never worked. Maybe during those two administrations the democrats could, 'Stop the "hating on" people. Start sitting down and talking to people.' However, that would have met leaving the Democratic elitism that 'support "class subordination" as opposed to "social co-operation"', at the door and engaging in vile compromise.

@J. B. Schmidt...Let me give you a different perspective on what you have posed considering Doyle and Obama.

I didn't agree with Doyle's passing of legislation in the dark of the night, without sufficient representation from the opposition. and an open debate that is more conducive to compromise. "Might" gets you what you may want, but it also leads to other issues that aren't as easily solved.

During the first two years of the Obama Administration, he did have a Democratic congress. However, Democrats have never been known to be single block voters. The Senate was a problem because they did not have a clear super majority based on two senate seats. The seat from Minnesota was open for quite some time and when Senator Franken was finally seated, Senator Kennedy was quite ill and finally died leaving the seat open until Senator Brown was elected permanently eliminating any chances of a filibuster proof majority. Therefore, the Democrats were forced to compromise with the minority party.

You go completely off the tracks with your unsupportable comments about socialism and the socialist elite. As you very well know, socialism pushes to raise all to a basic level of equal opportunity and equality. Socialism also supports the principles of providing the basic needs of humanity when people are unable to provide for themselves.

@J. B. Schmidt...There is nothing in democratic socialism that prevents the ability to achieve. You have a perspective on socialism that is not supported with facts.

@J. B. Schmidt...What kind of logic are you using here? First you are redefining terminology which changes the argument's very logically construction. Also, logically your argument doesn't support your conclusion. I cite to you that under President Eisenhower the top tax bracket was as high as 90% on taxable income. Your conclusion that taxing the rich at higher rates puts limits on achievement isn't born out by facts.

Social Security, Medicare, the military, police, fire departments, the highway system, the FAA - all examples of socialism. These inane arguments that "all socialism is bad" leads to idiotic statements like Michelle Bachmann's ideal tax rate of 0%. Drunk on the afterglow of the 2010 elections, Paul Ryan proposed fundamentally privatizing Medicare - which was probably about the time half of the Tea Party realized that they are benefiting greatly from government-run health insurance. It's true that countries don't have to provide programs to help the poor. A great example of such a country can be found in India. I'm sure you'd find that a Utopian place.

@kbb
I never directly argued against any government program. I agrued that redistiribution of wealth by the government was hurting society.

@Lyle
During the 1980's the high end tax bracket went from 70% in 1979, down to 28% 1989. The breakdown in income classes in 1980 was: 27.5% Low, 55% middle, 17.6% High (percent of population). By the end of the decade in 1989 the breakdown looked like this: 25.3% Low, 51.1% Middle, 23.5% High. Those groups were broken down as such Low 0 - $15K, Middle 15K to 50K and High 50K and up.
http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/prosper/fig-1.gif Also this graph shows a longer period of time how high taxes create less wealth. http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/chart-one-percent-wealth.jpg

It would appear that the lowered tax rate increased the number of rich and started moving people up in the class structure. If people were moving up it would point to a higher desire for achievement. Logically speaking the higher the ability to achieve, the higher the desire. When the government caps achievement through taxation, the desire is less and instead of punishing the rich, it hurts the lower classes. A study done by Iowa State university provides compelling evidence for this.
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/papers/p11552-2010-05-26.pdf

As for terminology, I am not sure which part you are refering to.

@J. B. Schmidt...I took the time to read through the links that you provided and I don't see the data directly supporting your statement that taxes place limits on achievement. In the first place, stop using data provided by the Heritage Foundation, it is unreliable and is manipulated to support their preconceptions. The Iowa State study was the most interesting but related to state's overall SGP. Not all taxes had an equal impact on SGP. Now if your attempting to show that tax rates directly impact worker productivity, that is not what this study was about. It also made important statements concerning state provided services which did not effect SGP. Using macroeconomics to describe certain states or conditions is questionable. I would have been more satisfied if you had included studies reflecting or including conditions since 2004.

@Lyle
Productivity and achievement are two sides of the same coin. Achievement is based on one's own level of productivity.

Based on your comments in regards to my information. I would assume that any census data I extrapolate could be said to be baised, especially since it can be pulled apart 6 ways from Sunday.

Lucky for me, I have yet to see anyone post proof to the opposing view that higher taxes make everyone more successful.

@J. B. Schmidt... You continuously continue to correlate one type of productivity with achievement. What the information you cite is focused on is not personal income or personal production, but the complex relationship between capital production and achievement. Most common folks do not understand this relationship and attempt to correlate it to personal circumstance. The Iowa study indicated there was only one tax that had a significant negative impact on capital productivity and that was property taxes. Given that fact, then the action should be to shift taxes away from property taxes to consumption, income and special use taxes. Please re-read your own data.