He better keep his day job because without a college degree he won't be quailfied to sweep the floor at any complanies that pay a decent wage.

Scott Walker is a dictator. The Republicans won't be happy until the divide between between the rich and the poor is even greater than it is now. He and Rebecca Kleefisch can afford their health insurance, but a lot of us cannot. It's the one's who don't feel the pinch who think that what he is proposing is great. The rest of us keep trying to make a decent living and pray that we don't have to go to the hospital.

I am Proud to be Supporting Governor Walker. It is Refreshing to have a governor with a Plan and great Group of Republican Senators.tha are not whinning and stomping their feet.

Progressive thinking prompts one to wish that a private sector worker has the same rights as the public sector worker.
As long as Hitler's name lives in history, so long will Walker's name will.

MY GOVERNOR GOT IT DONE...

JGK

JGK and wwjd, Klaus and Sue: Your governor lies and cheats his way to getting what he wants. You think he cares about YOU? This whole issue is about protecting big money so unless you 4 are millionaires or billionaires his cuts will affect you too somewhere down the road. He just has you so hoodwinked that you don't see it yet.

Proud to have a Governor Like Scott Walker.

What has Doyle done in the past few years?

Marybeth, It may affect all of us down the road but is what needed to be done to get the sate back in financially healthy shape. Doyle raided all the funds legally and illegally and raised taxes which is costing all of us more than Walkers plan.

Dan, I agree that we need to get the fiscal house in order. I don't think anyone contests that. But, the loss of collective bargaining really does nothing to that end. Even with the concessions public employees have made, AND with the LOSS OF THEIR RIGHTS, Walker has so drastically cut aid to local municipalities that they will STILL be unable to balance their budgets, AND he is alienating a ton of people in the process! All he is doing is transferrring the State Problem to the Local level so he can say that he balanced the state budget. He is FLAT OUT LYING, when he says he has saved jobs by cutting back revenue.....in fact he is creating a much bigger problem for local governments. They will STILL have to lay off employees, and dissolve many worthwhile community programs. Just check out what Muskego's superintendant of schools will have to say at tonight's board meeting if you don't believe me. We need to cut back, I realize this. But can you please tell me why, if we are all sharing the burden as Walker would have you believe, WHY is it that 60% of all corporations in Wisconsin pay 0%, THAT'S ZERO, income tax......that's FAIR??? He is LYING, or at the very least not telling the WHOLE TRUTH and that you can believe this sneaky snake absolutely boggles my mind! Do you think its financially healthy to destroy the educational system ?

Do you think its financially healthy to create greater unemployment so that there is no money to put back into local businesses? Do you think its financially healthy to create such animosity among neighbors that people will no longer work together to achieve the common good? Walker probably has some good ideas tucked away in Senate Bill 22.....the problem is that he has alienated so many people, that they won't even try to find them. He should be leading, not dividing, but he is so blinded by his own political ambition that he doesn't listen to the millions that oppose him.....soon he won't be listening to his supporters either. Just wait......he is a SNAKE, I tell you and he needs to be put in his place!!

Yes Marybeth, it does affect me. I know that my taxes won't be going up unless they ask me first. Wow, that's being hoodwinked. Me thinks that the wool has been pulled over your eyes and your union bosses and democratic friends lied to you...

No, he has put unions in their place and thank God for him, its about time.

OMG.......What a tangled web we weave! FC - I looked at your link. Sounds to me like he RESIGNED (was not removed) because he didn't agree with WEAC's decision to make concessions on the percentages teachers were to pay for healthcare and pensions. He thought they should have tried to get the percentages lower. Unless I was misreading, it also sounded like he also didn't want the DP teachers to settle their contract before the hammer came down (bad for teachers) and disagreed with protesting at the capitol. Of course WEAC wants dues to be mandatory.....everyone benefits from contract negotiations, everyone PAYS for the benefit of negotiations. Its FAIR! Please, let's not take statements out of context to make them sound like they are proving your point.

Read more: Follow these links to learn how bad SB22 will be for Wisconsin.....no matter houw you spin it!

School Finance Network response ... http://thewheelerreport.com/releases/March11/0317/0317sfn.pdf

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/118129759.html

Milwaukee's WISN

http://www.wisn.com/news/27221521/detail.html

Wisconsin State Journal

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_be49f5a8-5045-11e0-86a0-001cc4c03286.html

Department of Public Instruction

http://dpi.state.wi.us/eis/pdf/dpinr2011_26.pdf

Wispolitics.com

http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=230238

Wisconsin School Administrators Alliance

http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/March11/0316/0316saa.pdf

Wausau Daily Herald

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20110317/WDH0101/103170450/Local-government-officials-say-Walker-s-tools-will-not-work?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAG

Governor's budget plan for education gets a bad grade on basic mathematics
.by Josh Beck on Sunday, March 20, 2011 at 6:03pm. Governor's budget plan for education

gets a bad grade on basic mathematics

By Tom Beebe, Wisconsin Alliance for Excellent Schools

As long as the cost of education does not increase, the tools Governor Scott Walker "gave" districts to offset his devastating cuts to school aids might work, theoretically, for some communities. In the real world, however─where costs increase and children need opportunities to succeed, the coming years look pretty bleak.

That was the assessment following Tuesday's credentialed media only press event behind locked doors where the Governor rolled out his version of the 2011-13 budget for public education. Not everyone was as optimistic as Walker.

Superintendent of Schools Tony Evers called the budget "a crushing challenge," while the School Finance Network said the budget is "shortsighted and counterproductive" and "the simple fact is that (it) will result in cuts to programs and services and increases in class sizes."

(sorry, I couldn't fit the whole thing in one comment)
In general, the Governor's budget that cuts aid and reduces districts' revenue authority doesn't take into account 18 years of cuts to programs and services and basic inflationary cost increases. WAES maintains that sooner or later, the result of the cuts─small, large, and cumulative─will be or already has jeopardized the future of Wisconsin's children and communities.

Wisconsin's School Administrator's Alliance (SAA) said its members "are united in their opposition to Governor Walker's agenda of privatizing public education." According to John Forester, the group's director of government relations, "The school aid cuts in the Governor's proposed budget plan are of a magnitude not seen since the Great Depression."

Marybeth-The only thing in collective bargaining is that we, the people who pay for the luxuries, are not at the table. That is not FAIR. IF youdon't like working for the public sector, GET OUT. There are 1,000's waiting for your job and would be quite happy to not be part of a union. As Charlie Brown would say, "Good Grief!!!"

Memo to WSAA-The 5 million of us in this state that are not public sector employees are also united in support of Walker. Maybe if you got some real competition from the private sector, you would perform better in educating our children. Cadillac pensions and health insurance should get Cadillac results, not Edsel. BTW-The Edsel is extinct.

Excuse me Brian......have you forgotten that public employees are also taxpayers? We pay a portion of our own compensation package......do you pay your own salary??? Why do you people in the private sector think you are the only ones PAYING for anything in this state? Why do you HATE teachers so much? If you think we've got it so good how come you're not a teacher? I'm done trying to convince you of anything. Go ahead and love your Governor. Go ahead and destroy everything WI has stood for, for over 50 years. Let me know when your taxes go down and your life becomes perfect! You make me angry, but you can't win a pissing contest with a skunk!!

"WHY is it that 60% of all corporations in Wisconsin pay 0%, THAT'S ZERO, income tax......"

Probally because they didn't make a profit that year. Just think though how much the people they employed paid. So they even create income for the state even if they have a loss. Boy maybe the evil Corporations aren't so bad!

Mary, you pay taxes too? yes you do with money created of the back of the private sector for PROFIT companies, which is who state employees work for! You don't work for the union even though they tell you what to do and say.

Well Dan, what would you, the private sector man, like to pay public employees.....nothing?? I suppose we could work for the master like slaves, for nothing. Seems we have not much respect from all of you anyway. I say fine then! Do away with public education - you can teach your own kids; do away with garbage men - collect your own garbage, do away with police and firefighters - protect your own home from fire or theft. Just like in the pioneer days, when those with money "had" and those without money "had not".....wow, that's really "Moving Wisconsin Forward"

Marybeth-Yes I do as a matter of fact, and I also pay my employee's share. You see, Marybeth, I am one of those evil CEO's, and I do pay income tax for the corporation, salaries that are above the state average in our business sector, fees to license my employees, Workers' Comp, Uneployement Insurance, state tax, local tax, federwal withholdings, state withholdings, tax on purchases, tax on gasoline, tax on diesel, etc... So I know what it's like. At the end of the day, I have no choice but to balance my budget or I will have to layoff and/or shut my doors. My business has privatizedonce held jobs by public employees at a third the cost. I also sat on the school board in Racine and have seen what collective bargaining has done to our budgets. So if I'm a little callous to your situation, it comes from working with your leaders and seeing the unions and the administrators rob the taxpayer with no results.

Good Grief Mary beth you just dont get it.
Walker for President!

You work 36 weeks per year, 37.5 hrs per week, make on average over 50,000 and get almost 40,000 in benefits. Quit your whining for a part time job.

Mare, come on now nobody has said we don't need state employees or teachers. We pay for our garbage collection through a private for profit company.

The collective bargaining has cost taxpayers 1oos of millions in unnecessary costs and needed to go. I just wish Walker would have done it as an executive order like in Indiana and it would have save alot of time dealing with the hippie union minion protestors and the tax payer costs that went with it .

The health care and pension needed to have a percentage paid for by the state employees so they would have real ownership and actually care what it costs. Would the teachers still opt for the $10,000 more expensive plan if they had to pay a small percentage of it? Heck no that would cost them another $1200.00, they would be fiscally responsible and choose the plan with the lesser cost now that they have a stake in it. But before it didn't matter they just stuck it to the tax payer.

Mare also if you are a state employee what are you doing on this web site all day. As your boss I say get to work!

This is Dan B And I approve of this message

Oh my Mary, you're so braiwashed by your union I don't know where to start with you.
Yes, I und erstand that public employees are taxpayers too, I also get that public employees, at least their unions and leaders, regard paying taxes much like a ponzi scheme. They don't mind a little increase in taxes, because they'll aslo be increased for all us folks (The overwhelming majority) who won't benefit from it with lavish pensions that will allow us FULL retirement at 55 with inflation protection, FREE healthcare for life, abusive Teacher Emiritus programs, the choice of a health insurance program that costs a whole lot more than the competition with no discernable extra benefits just because it's from teh UNION OWNED COMPANY (Meaning more $$ being scammed out of taxpayers pockets by your beloved union). That increase is so much less than they'd have to put away to provide they're own retiremnet like the rest of us, who also provide their retirement.

You Talk about being fair, how is any of this fair??

Ahhhh (lightbulb!) Brian.... your comments make sense now. You are one of the "haves" and I'm sure your employees love you. I'm glad you agree that employees should be paid a salary ABOVE the state average (that seems to be what teachers have been fighting for all these 50 years). Its commendable that you pay employee licensing fees (teachers pay their own). I think we've had this conversation before, you and I. Thank you for being truthful!

Dan B - I'm old and retired and it hurts my heart to see public employees so disrespected and unappreciated! Its like a kick in the teeth for all the years I dedicated to helping children grow. I try to keep up with all that's going on but honestly there is so much out there that is simply not true. I tried to give you links to info that I have found, I've done my best to help you see the other side.....but both sides put their own spin on the truth and I suppose I am somewhat biased.

I'd like to leave you with some thoughts on the "profit" education makes. It is not immediately tangible like some product you can produce, and its quality cannot immediately be seen. The product education produces is a human being. Unlike business for profit we cannot control the "quality" of the raw material used to produce this product. We must start with what we are given and do our best to fashion and mold the character that is to become the future. Even if every time we begin with a quality material, the end product STILL may not always be up to the standard we would hope for. There are just too many variables! We do not sell this product for "profit", but rather we invest it in the hope that it will do well for us in our old age. That my friend, is our future.......Governor Walker's SB22 does much to see that this "investment" fails.

Could any of you verbalize how you are better off supporting the libertarian agenda. What specifically makes your individual lives better off with a republican (libertarian)agenda that siphons 2-3 thousand dollars out of each and every one of you taxpayers to support corporate welfare, and rapes the infrastructure you paid for, not the 66% of corporations that do not pay US tax on their profits. Some of these welfare executives pocket annual salaries of 15-20 million annually. All paid for by you and I. Republicans(libertarians) rely on our ignorance to advance their agenda. Any one interested in following the money and searching for themselves could come to no other conclusion. So if you want to bash each other .GO AHEAD. That's by their design.

Michael, you are incorrect in equating libertarians with republicans. Libertarians don't support corporatism or corporate welfare. In fact. libertarians don't support anything that is BIG. Here is a very simple quiz (overly simple) quiz that identifies where one falls on the political map.

You would be surprised to learn that liberals and libertarians share some political principles. In fact Dennis Kucinich (left) and Ron Paul (libertarian) oppose the current Libyan military actions. Both are opposite the republican neo-con position.

Libertarians are opposed to corporate welfare, bank bailouts, and the secrecy of the Fed. And they, like you, are peed that our current government policies are transferring middle class wealth to wall street and the banksters. So please, don't denigrate libertarians by calling them republicans. That would be like calling a democrat a communist.

link for quiz:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz
have fun.

Mary beth and Michael. What would happend if all of us worked for the Government ? Can you Imagen That ? What fun..
If the Education that you deliver is seated so deep that it takes along time to notice,then it was likly not very good.You see Mary beth when we get Educated to work on an assembly line or driving a Truck we have to get it now, or we will not make it trough the Day.Think of the fine young Men that go into the Service,if the dont learn fast there are dire results.
Ihave a feeling that you teach your Students to think your way. Anybody that hires People straight out of scool will tell you how long it takes to show them the real World.

I am a retired bricklayer. I value an educated society. I value the services this society offers. I have contributed to this infrastructure and continue to do so. So please tax me.
Is it your position Klaus that reducing our support for public education and support for our elderly and less fortunate is more important than reducing the public assistance to some of the richest companies in the US?That is what is taking place. Not my opinion. Fact. Any reasonable person that researched this could come to no other conclusion.

obtw. Lets start real simple. Punch Koch Brothers into google and go to Wikipedia. Hit all the informative links and then we can continue on to more sophisticated information. I fail to understand how Koch being a libertarian makes me a communist. But I am sure you have practical and sound reasons for feeling that way. And while you are at it punch corporate welfare queens into a search and see whose names come up. Another thing that puzzles me is that you seem to support both far right and far left arguments. Sorry if I misinterpreted your last statement. I have spent a great deal of time coming to the conclusions I have politically but I am trying to respect you and understand your position if you indeed have one.

Klaus, I taught my students to think for themselves; to collect and weigh the facts and make their own decision. If that is teaching them to "think my way" then I guess you're right. I just feel an informed decision based on fact vs. political rhetoric will serve one better. Hence my position, based on fact, integrity and what I have so far witnessed.
Michael - Soooooo glad to see you here!!!!! Please keep posting.....so happy to have some support in debating this issue that is SO IMPORTANT for the well-being of the state and its ENTIRE population.

Marybeth, thanks. Whew! Tough crowd. Are you a lone ranger here? I love the fact that everyone is engaged though. I would like to see a little less name calling and a little more meat in the conversations. I know there,s a lot of pain in the community right now. I also know that the division in the community is by design from a few extremely rich individuals who say one thing and do another. The Republican Party has become a cloak to advance the libertarian agenda. The divide created, almost always because of some sort of "crisis" is meant to distract us working folks from the real drain on our treasury. Corporate welfare. There is so much overwhelming evidence that it is hard to dispute. What most people don't realize is that this generosity on the taxpayers behalf sucks between two and three thousand dollars out of each and everyone of us annually. That is our tax donation to some of the largest and richest Corporations in America. That is on top of all the mega-companies like GE that post a profit of 18 billion dollars a year and pay no US tax. Yet by design, the conversation is diverted to divide the masses. Sound familiar? Democracy has never been easy. But you do have to be willing to participate. You are on the right side of the debate . I believe the republican party exists today because of our ignorance. Stay in the conversation. I am here to understand and learn. But I like to keep things real.It is the single most important issue of my lifetime.

In Propaganda (1928), Bernays argued that the manipulation of public opinion was a necessary part of democracy:
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.

Thank you Marybeth for giving me some good examples that I am able to attach to emails showing how ridiculous the public sector looks trying to defend their 'rights'. Several are school teachers that have become increasingly embarrassed by their peers actions and selfishness. Others are also taxpayers like you that pay their own salary (I loved that logic). Some are the 'rich' business owners that support that horrible dictator Walker. The ones that really enjoy your line of thinking are the Federal employees (Dan is DEA and puts his life out there every day protecting our kids) that do not have collective bargaining. They don't strike or complain. They know what they signed up for and Thank God everyday they have a job and it's a job they love.

THANK YOU SCOTT WALKER AND THANK YOU TO THE PUBLIC SERVANTS THAT CONTINUE TO DO THEIR JOBS PROUDLY!!

Mark S But Federal workers have a pension, paid by you, and health benefits paid by you. And nobody is targeting THEIR savings. I have no idea who you are or what you do but if government was to target you specifically, would you lay down and say thank you for taking my money to support LARGE corporations? Wouldn't it be nice if Dan wouldn't have to lay his life on the line to protect our kids by making policy change that would indeed keep the drugs out of the hands of children? As a union member in the private sector I can tell you that by my association with the union we were able to extract a living wage and benefits and our employers were still able to accumulate a great deal of wealth. So I ask. What is a doctors degree and 20 years of experience worth in the private sector? Will I be bowing to you in this class system you are willing to support or will you be bowing along side of me. Marybeth, doesn't sound like Mark has your back. But don't be too concerned because he's really not watching his back either.

Thanks for the great answer. I am trying to understand your position. I have been called names by experts. Dialog doesn't hurt Mark. You may have some valid points of argument that I haven't considered. I am suggesting that if you want to cut your taxes you have been purposely directed in the wrong direction. Public service is not straining our budget. Corporate welfare is. Republicans nationally who support the libertarian agenda are beginning to come to the conclusion that the only place left to cut is corporate welfare. Fact. I am not asking you do believe what I say I am only asking that you consider to take it upon yourself to learn about the issues.I am here to learn why you feel the way you do. I would not consider demeaning you. Even if we knew each other. But if that was your argument. I still don't understand.

Michael. Yes Federal employees are paying for all their benefits and it does not come out of taxpayer money.

The state workers have it better then the Federal employees do

Michael , you have a very valid argument , why everyone belevies the propaganda that the workers wage is to blame, which comes from ceo's making millions plus bonus, is beyond me! Look at the bail out, after banks went broke and we, all of us, gave them millions of tax dollars, what do they do ? Lay off workers and then give themselves million dollar bonus's! The rich got richer and the poor got poorer and the middle class is not far behind!

To me, it comes down to the dilemna of living in a world economy. Let's all agree that many successful huge corporations do not pay their "fair" share of taxes. I'm not sure how many people would argue that they do not want to change that. CEO salaries at private companies are probably their own concern. If their companies are publicly traded, it's their stockholders' concern. If the companies are nonprofit, it is their board's concern. Employees could try to influence company boards to modify CEO salaries. We have to look at our tax codes that have been created by legislation if we want to change how corporations pay tax. We might have to change the way legislation is created (i.e. forbidding earmarks). One thing in the back of my mind is that if we make it more profitable for a corporations to do business in another country (by increased taxes), they very likely will leave. That is why it is difficult to just talk about "fairness". There is so much greater unfairness in other countries. What can we do in the U.S. to change that? Because until there is more worldwide equity, there isn't going to be much national equity. If the U.S. was a system within itself, the solutions would be simpler. Right now, our trade deficit is unsustainable. We are trying to encourage more business creation in the U.S. How do we do that except through tax incentives? I know that we also try to compete by the quality of our employees (educated, skilled, motivated, efficient).

Michael. My Husband is well below a teachers salary.

They do not have all the fringe benefits that the teachers have,and besides he works 12 months out of the year

Lory.
What my husband pays is outragious bi-weekly
All I am saying is tax payer money is not involved with the federal goverment benefits.

Believe me he is paying a portion of it
He does not have all those sweet benefits as the teachers do

Hi Lori, I couldn't agree more to your post about propaganda. You sound like a reasonable person and as long as you search sources outside corporate media you stand a really good chance of making fact based decisions on the issues.
Is the issue money? Who has it and why. Is the issue taxes? 25% of the nations GDP is the cash economy. That is an extraordinary amount of money untapped. Profitable Business continues to reap huge amounts of taxpayer money and avoid US taxes. Is the issue creating jobs? I have never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer, but wouldn't it make more sense to stop paying the richest companies in the world with our tax money and invest it in new technology start-ups. These old tech companies taxpayers support don't create jobs. They are at full employment. They won't collapse and their jobs won't go away if their tax support is removed. They may whine a little but it beats stealing out of someone else's purse year after year. In my opinion anyway. Nice to hear you engaged.

Michael, BTW, my name is Lory. The issue is usually money. Sometimes it is power which comes from money. Sometimes it is freedom to do and live as one pleases which also might by tied to money. Even our altruistic inclinations are often tied to money. David Koch couldn't have donated all the money he has to cancer research and the arts without his vast acquired resources. Ditto Bill Gates. On to another point, how do you define the cash economy? Do you mean nonreported income that is not evident in some bank transaction? Our laws are clear that we are to report cash income, but they are cumbersome to enforce. If it is true that there is an under the table economy which is valued at 25% GDP, that is significant. We'd probably find that percentage much higher in some other countries. Not sure how we could encourage people's honesty: honesty sensitivity sessions? Now about those rich companies, are they based in the U.S. or do they have U.S. employees? Are they making a profit? What tax codes exemptions are they utilizing? Which ones need to be changed if they are not helping our nation? I've heard plenty of whining lately so that wouldn't be anything new. However, will they just whine or will they relocate to another country and take their jobs with them? We are investing in new technology start ups. It would be worthwhile to research the percentage of those companies that make it beyond the start up phase. Otherwise, it's more government welfare.

Lory, It's the tax code plain and simple, simplify it, apply a flat tax (no more than 10-15%) and this makes the underground economy less attractive. Not my idea but rather my supervisor's many years ago when I worked for the IRS. By the way his tax plan preceded Forbes and all the current supporters of that path. It also picks up all those people who live wonderful lifestyles but avoid paying taxes legally due to the current tax code. For example real estate moguls. Revising the tax code has been put forth recently by Obama and may or may not come to be, however I don't have confidence in that since he didn't follow through on his February of 2009 statement to change the way hedge funds are taxed at beneficial rates.

Lory How many problems would go away with public financed campaign funds. The influence of money on our political , is crippling the judgment of those who are supposed to be in our service. Whether you are right or left of center you have to admit that the idea of partisan politics is unproductive. The cash economy, is on the surface, everything that is paid for in cash. To tap this resource Canada relies on sales taxes . I know they have their problems but we completely ignore this tax base. The subject of honesty. Politicians are notorious spin doctors. They have a habit of acting in a manner that is 180 from what they say. And there is plenty of that to go around on both sides of the isle. GE made 18 billion dollars. They did not pay a dime in US tax. The list of corporations is large. Many make a profit, do not pay any US Tax, and receive corporate welfare from us benevolent taxpayers. These CEOs make tens of millions annually on our kind support. These are mainly HUGE corporations, with gas, mining, agriculture and media interests and are already multinational. Many stash their largess in offshore accounts. It is in their best interest to maximize profits in this old technology. This is why there is no investment in new technology. The numbers we are talking about are beyond my comprehension. In my opinion if we simply stopped this type of support and created significant venture funds with some of that money, we could get back to work.

Michael.... 2000 hours? Get real. Most teachers beat the kids out of school. I do work there on contracts and am told I need to clean up so they can lock there doors. Please save the excuse of grading papers all night, most use study hall time and down time during the day for that. Kids are in school for 7 hrs a day including lunch. Giving a teacher 8 hours for 9 months (there are days off in there I won't even take out) minus the weekends would only come out to around 1600 hours tops. Again I did not even take out for Christmas break, Easter break, and misc days throughout the year.

I agree with year round school, it is a great idea and can now be addressed with collective bargaining gone. Most teachers HATE the idea because it would be a burden for them if their kids had off at a different time that they teach. Now real teachers that enjoy their jobs and want to help the kids would go along with it, because like you said it evens out the down time for the kids. I believe it would accelerate the learning for our kids because it would put them on a more reasonable schedule. It would also make summer events much less crowded!!!

Mark I have the honor of being married to an educator. Now before you start on the personal attacks to me or my wife I would like to point out that the argument that we could have on this issue is a distraction from the real issue. Perceptions have a way of distorting truth and if we argue my perception vs your perception we will have had a fruitless argument . But you see through the dialog that we have agreement on the merits of all year school. I agree that it would be in the best interest of our children and in my case, my grandchildren. So how to we build on our common ground? One other point. Unless something happened today that I am unaware of , Public employees still enjoy the right to belong to a trade organization for the purpose of a collective voice.

Honestly, Mark... it is called a work ethic and many people outside of education also work very hard. You were very quick to point out how little teachers work, so why should you be surprised by a rebuttle?

Not all teachers.....

Mark, thanks for the op-ed. This doesn't address the problem. Is the issue you have taxes, jobs, or something else. Juliet! That scenario you just described is familiar. Forgive me if I assumed incorrectly that you are married, But as a husband of a person very similar to the one you described I can attest that the whole family makes a sacrifice with a mother or father as a teacher. That could be said for many demanding professions. A bricklayer foreman that works the same minimum hours required of a teacher would make 58,000 dollars a year with a pension and health care . Just to put some perspective on our arguments. But once again I caution you both, that this is all a distraction as to why are taxes are too high and we have no new jobs.

Mark, I worked for a guy for 23 years. He had an article written up in an ataboy industry magazine about him and his business. After reading it I am sure my mouth was open with amazement at his statement of 12-16 hour workdays. His brother inlaws worked for the company too. After a few beers their take on the story would have made you cry laughing. It was great.

Alicia has made some grossly incorrect statements regarding pay and benefits of federal government workers. I have several friends who work for the feds and this is a little summary of their compensation (I could have some errors). Some were hired under the old civil service pension system and have 7% of their salary withheld that goes toward their future pension. They also pay the employee portion of the FICA tax attributed to the disability insurance (I think currently .09%). Believe me, when they retire, they will recover their entire contribution to their pension in less than 3 years- after that future employees or taxpayers will pick up the slack. They also can contribute to a thrift savings plan with pre-taxed dollars. I don't believe there is any matching because the pension is so lucrative. The rest of the employees are under the FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System). These employees are under social security and until recently, had the full 6.2% FICA withheld from their salaries (like most of us) with the taxpayers matching the other 6.2%. They can contribute to a pretaxed thriftsavings plan which also has a matching feature (which is paid by taxpayers). With regard to health insurance, they only pay a portion of their premium, like most of us. The employer (taxpayers pick up the majority of the premium). They also have generous vacation and sick leave programs, paid by the employer (taxpayers). Also, they benefit from employer paid life insurance.

Greenfield resident, thanks for your insight. You are obviously passionate about education and I think you see the future clearly. We can hope.

Mark S, you confuse me... Your wife is a teacher? Mind if I ask what you do?

Lory, I don't have all the answers, but I do believe that all the loop holes have to go and everyone, I mean everyone has to have some skin in the game and something at risk or the worst risk, political control and submissiveness can takes over. As for the underground economy, I don't believe you can get at everything but increasing the penalties for not reporting income along with lower taxation will catch some of the evaders. Studies have been done forever which demonstrate the positive effect of a simpler tax code including eliminating those that don't pay any taxes. As for corporate taxation, maybe that means a somewhat higher rate for them but do take into consideration of corporate taxation in the rest of the world which runs from about 15% to 40% from country to country. As you have wisely stated earlier we need to retain our world wide competitiveness and corporate taxation is part of that formula. In that respect we should also address the double taxation aspect of corporate earnings. Also, for 50 years we have emphasized spending versus saving in this country which has resulted in thrift being downgraded and investment dollars for things like startup businesses becoming scarce. Some nations do not tax savers punitive returns. Oh well, like I said I'm sure people smarter than me may have better answers and certain action could be rewarding if only the special interest groups and politicians can be overcome. It will take bold leadership and all will not be happy.

Lory,without touching on each point specifically I would encourage you to search "corporate welfare". It is well documented. Pay attention to who receives the vast amount of taxpayer support. Then find out the companies bottom line and look at the pay packages for the CEOs and owners of these Corporations. You seem to have an understanding to how things are meant to be but in reality things are much different. So is your position on GE that after posting a profit of 18 billion and because they pay tax in all the other countries they find growth in that they should be given a free ride and pay no tax in the US even though the annual pay package one company officer was close to 20 million?
One of the first things companies look at before making a substantial investment is the community they want to build in. Its workforce, schools and infrastructure. The companies that taxpayers generously support, (some of the richest companies in America) are invested in old technology. They are at 100% employment. They have no new jobs to provide here. Their growth market is overseas. They pay no taxes here, suck taxpayer dollars in the form of subsidies,(welfare)and stifle US growth . I believe our tax dollars would be better spent supporting us rather than them. Consider spending taxes on venture start-up funds for new tech businesses that provide new growth and jobs instead. If you take this welfare from these companies they are not moving away and taking their jobs.

Lory, Canada has embraced sales taxes for equity. I am in favor of any method that brings equity to the table. I am not knowledgeable enough to judge the merits of taxing one way or another. But I am knowledgeable enough to know that what we are doing now is nowhere near equitable.

Who is more trustworthy--trained professional journalists, or GE's spinmeisters?
Much as people love to laud untrained bloggers who are held to no journalistic standards whatsoever, and much as some people love to believe whatever megacorporations tell them, I'm going to err on the side of believing the NY Times and the intelligent commenters on this piece on GE as just one of many corporations that gets away with ripping off the IRS and the American people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?hp

Trained professional journalists? From The NY Times? That's good. That's where I would go for factual and unbiased news! I heard The Onion and The Shepard Express have great trained journalists as well, you just have to fight through all the ads about how to find a gay lover.

I have to say it is up to us to see through the BS that is printed and find where the truth really is. Isn't the NY Times a business, don't they have interests to protect? The Times is declining fast because no one believes what they print anymore by the way...

I don't agree with all the huge payouts to the execs, but don't they get taxed on that money? At some point the money is taxed, it is up to the corporations to decide when. They can give it to execs, employees, or whatever, but it does get taxed. Unless they reinvest in themselves and at some point every company that wants to survive has to reinvest in themselves. It's not the governments responsibility to tell them how to spend their money.

Mark I would assume that he paid taxes. My point is that this practice puts small business at a disadvantage. Another point is that SOME of these corporations receive huge sums of taxpayer support. And it clearly favors LARGE corps over small business. As far as media goes 5 or 6 mega corps own nearly all of what we watch and what we hear. We are exposed to opinion journalism in every aspect of our life. Everything needs to be interpreted. Your BS shield has to be on full power, especially when a politician talks. Without raising a dime in taxes, by redistributing them, we could remove a lot of talking points. As N Peske said. Spinmeisters(aka public relations, propaganda, interesting how these words carry a common definition but different connotation) predominate our culture. We don't have to be at each others throats. Union, taxes, public workers teachers small business private workers all have something to gain by directing these distractions into policy change to benefit everyone. We've been punked by Libertarians and their spinmeister games and it permeates our political scene.

Mary Beth is right....Walker will be proven a liar...There is no fiscal problem in Wisconsin...We have plenty of money
for years to come....We can rreadily absorb not only the full insurance and retirrement but could also approve some slight
raises..He is just fabricating this money problem thing...just like California...they lie about their fiscal problems out
there also...In any event, if we do have a money problem there is always the easy fix as there was in the past...just raise
taxes....that hasnt been done in a long time,,,Mary Beth certainly does not have Mark S. sense of humor...

JGK

I guess I'm missing this thing where people are saying the state has all this money. We are required to have a balanced budget in this state. I am assuming everyone is aware of the shuffling Doyle did, the Federal stimulus money used, and borrowing he did to 'balance' the previous budget years. Now we MUST repay the coffers of the malpractice funds he raided (courts said he shouldn't have touched them), we are not going to see more 'stimulus' money, and we have to repay MN the money we borrowed. So if we were balanced before, how in the heck do you balance it now when your already in a hole without cutting something, raid a different fund, or borrow from somebody else?!

Hasn't anyone thought of why Doyle didn't run again? He is not even taking any heat from this garbage he created, he just disappeared. No comments, words of wisdom or anything from the man who was once the Teachers Unions ace in the hole. Why isn't he speaking in Madison to protect the rights of the state's workers. Where is his lamenting about how he should have ran again to keep Wisconsin safe from the evil Republicans?!

I would much rather fix the issue now and get ourselves on the right track for the future. You can't expect to keep playing games with peoples money and hope everything will just work out. I think that is the difference in philosophy of the two parties. One says as long as I can pay my bills today I'm good. The other says I need to look at all my debt and get it to a manageable point so things don't get out of control in the future. Anyone that looks at their mortgage and smiles is foolish unless that number gets low enough where you can see your way out (and your house still has decent value). Just don't look at the total interest paid for the length of the loan!!

What list was I on?

Naughty list.... No Christmas cookies

Mark, this division. The haves vs the have not's, union vs non-union, private sector vs public sector, we,re broke, we can't afford it. It is all pr or propaganda or whatever you want to call it by the third party you don't mention, who out spends and out influences the ones you did. And all the time laughing their butts off at us because they know that WE are financing our demise with our tax money. We give them same people billion of dollars a year in subsidies(welfare). Oil and mining giants top the list. Yet we gut our social programs to support these people. Sorry but that makes no sense at all. Lets all put some skin in the game. There would be enough money left for joint capitol funds to support new tech business without pitting us against each other or taking away, or robbing the rich or this group or that group. Without raising a dime in our taxes.

Hi Lorry, As Rak noted earlier. I too admire your ability to keep people at task. The world needs a great deal more people like you that are willing to question issues rather than hurl mantra. I believe in free markets. I don't believe corporations are bad. I don't believe our social programs are bad. I believe we have bad policy. I believe that tax EQUITY, and campaign financing changes, policy changes if you will, or redistributing tax money from programs that don't work (corporate welfare) to programs that do work or are in need of money(education,healthcare,social security for the future). Without raising taxes.I have no argument with corporations paying private corporations a trillion dollars a year. As long as NONE of it came from the taxpayer. Remember that free market stuff. Can you really argue on behalf of profitable mega companies on the gov.dole? How is that fair to small business. GE won't leave. They've already left. With the investment, the jobs and our taxes. Get the taxes from them and invest in new tech with public venture funds. GE is an unfair target for this and other abuses because it is so wide spread. They are one player in a sea of players. I'll post some Links for you Lory

Lory, judge for yourself the reliability of what you read. This is a starting point. Sorry for the fragmented statements above. I had about ten interruptions from my grand daughter. See if you can draw some parallels between the politics in play with searches of the Libertarian Party influence in US Politics. Then the players involved. It was fun for me. If you think knowledge is expensive,try ignorance plays in spades on this issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/corporate-america-squeals_n_519976.html
http://farm.ewg.org/summary.php
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/04/06/exxon-zero-taxes/
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-08/rich-taking-from-poor-as-10-billion-u-s-subsidy-law-funds-luxury-hotels.html

Lory, I couldn't agree more. If we got in touch with our hearts more we may find a way to get at Marks cookies without selling our souls.

Ignorance can be addressed. Fear-based close-mindedness is a lot harder to crack.

Couldn't agree more. You can lead a horse to water. But you can't make them drink.

So shoot the damn horse.... it's in the way of the other horses trying to get a drink

If I shoot the horse I may not get my cookies.

Oh you must mean the horse that refuses to drink the Entitlement Kool -Aid. Good Horsey :)

I was talking about the horses that drink Koch actually.(bad horsey) :) xxxooo

Don't drink soda, bad for your teeth.

Some of us actually drink from the wonderful waterfall of knowledge God provides to all of us. The one that says morality should be our guide not the government, that one. It's pretty easy to pass by, but once you choose to visit and taste it's amazing!

You gotta admit Mark. Our useless diatribe qualifies us for some public office . Issue Taxes? They were just raised. Issue Size of gov? Are suggesting no social programs? Government shouldn't own property? What? Is the issue jobs? I wouldn't be jumping on the band wagon to invest in a state that is this divided. We can't invest in jobs because we invest in corporate welfare. Morality guides most of us one way or the other. It has been a great deal of time since I have considered a politician to guide my morality. Under that wonderful waterfall are stones to be overturned for new knowledge.

Issue taxes.... No increase
Issue budget.... Balance it
Issue public unions..... Gone, same as the federal government
Issue size of government..... Small and efficient
Issue social programs..... Limited to prevent overlapping and waste. Should be policy tax exempt status requires a percentage of give back to area social programs to remain at status or you become taxed
Issue government property..... Gov (taxpayers) owns parks, wetlands, etc locally maintained with gov grants, if needed,to ensure community involvement and investment. If can't be sustained.... Gone. Municipal buildings and schools gov (fed, state, locally) owned, vacant for 2 years..... Gone. Sold with consent by vote (referendum) or locally elected boards to ensure proper use and value
Issue voting.... ID required to insure everybody's vote matters. If you can find the time to vote you can find the time to get proper ID. You could do it all in the same day!!!
Issue stupidity.... Blame your parents, not the government or a teacher
Issue intelligence, practicality and common sense.... Thank your parents, not the government or a teacher
Issue potty training..... Before 1 year
Issue school lunch.... Made by child by first grade
Issue college tuition.... It's your education, good luck
Issue inheritance.... Spend it, you earned it. Make them work hard and earn there own, builds character
Issue boxers or briefs.... Boxers, sorry TMI

Whew. Sounds like a lot of government intervention to me. Tax equity, social responsibility, excellent public education and campaign finance reform is all I'd like to see. Do you have room for any of these ideas in this list of change? (ps, as you get older you may find yourself in need of diapers )

Social responsibility? Sounds expensive. That has to be pushed by the government? Don't we have enough college professors and 7th year college students for that?
Excellent public education? Is 'excellent' public education a right too? What does 'excellent' cost? Sorry, your stuck with the teachers you have. Can I just get 'good' seeing about 50% of our taxes go to this already. You want an 'excellent' public defender too? Don't get in trouble.
Tax equity? You mean shared wealth? Go for it. I believe you would do better getting rid of the BS right offs the rich use by giving to some phony non profit so they end up not having to pay any taxes at all. Should we continue sharing with people who refuse to work? Do we share with people that are in this country illegally? Do we continue to share with people that generation after generation have grown up knowing every trick in the book on how to get something for free from the government? Or do we say enough is enough and this country is based on working hard, so get to it. Again I feel the local non profits, tax exempt charities, and local municipalities should be involved in helping the poor.
Campaign finance reform? I'm all for it! Both sides are abusing it in different ways, the problem is getting both sides to be willing to stop the abuse and get something signed.

No diapers, my wife will just sit me in a sand box or my kids will put a pair of ski's on my wheelchair and send me down the expert hill.

To all those who think your 401k is safe and it's better to be in a non-govt job.
Fewer employers contributed to 401(k) plans in 2010 nearly 10 points, from 58.6% to 48.8%.
By Rick Romell, Journal Sentinel

March 25, 2011 | Last last year the number of employers making guaranteed contributions to 401(k) plans fell, according to a nationwide survey released Friday by Pewaukee-based organization MRA-The Management Association.

Survey - More than 2,300 companies nationwide last August - October, 78.1% offered single-coverage health plans & 69.4% family coverage - both down less than a percentage point from '09.

The survey by the EAA, of which MRA is a member, included companies of all sizes, about half with 100 or fewer employees and about 10% having more than 500, 50% manufacturers.

Can I push my social responsibility too? Like protecting our most precious treasures, the unborn? Or is social responsibility only for punishing animal abusers, telling people not to put their cigs out on the golf greens, don't fertilizer your lawn, what laundry detergent to use, or saving the whale? You know the important stuff like that!

The bottom line is the Budget Repair Bill was meant to prevent public employee layoffs. Governor Walker is saving these people their jobs. Pay attention to how many other states are laying off thousands of public employees. But the unions are filling them with lies, and the sheeple believe them. And the Koch Bros. are no different the Warren Buffett and George Soros.
Thank you to Governor Walker and the GOP legislature for preventing this state from bankruptcy, without raising our taxes.

Marybeth, you will never convince the knuckledraggers here that the approach by Herr Walker is wrong on so many levels. This battle has nothing to do with the state budget - it is all about power and money and how much more of both they can transfer from the middle class to the multi-state corporations and uber-rich. They still believe in trickle-down economics, and that if they give tax breaks to the rich and to corporations they will shower us with jobs. BS, the only thing that creates jobs is demand for the product or service. Wall Street just perpetrated the biggest heist in history on the American people, yet no one went to jail and the uber-rich got richer. The reason - deregulation letting the fox guard the henhouse and Scooter is deregulating here as fast as he can so his fat cat friends can have their way with our state. It's a shame but don't despair, recalls in the next couple of months will restore the Dem Majority in the Senate and next January will be Scooters turn to look for a job..

As a non-union university teacher who works in a field that no one cares about for 11 months a year, is trying to clothe and feed 3 growing teens, and who hasn't had a vacation in over 4 years, I am taking a bit of my Saturday to see where the "people" stand in these kinds of forums. Not a waste of time exactly but I wonder if I will have a retirement in which to spend copious amounts of time in on line dialogue. As my probably over 10% take home pay cut kicks in in a few days, I can say that I will be making substantial cuts to our spending. Bye, bye all TV (yay, I will relish NOT paying AT & T), a "spending freeze" in all clothing unless kids are busting out (YES! on not contributing to anymore Vietnamese, Chinese, or Pakistani sweat shop workers), so long Hollywood (we will only frequent the budget $2 theater for entertainment--take THAT Hollywood CEOs), and though we'll have to switch to a lot more high carb, high glycemic index foods (Spaghetti anyone?), I will STILL support locally grown organic food so my kids can healthily combat the low grade radiation that their canceled cell phones have wrought in their growing bodies. I am not saying I loathe contributing more towards my pension and health care which are good but I would have liked to have had some warning as to the absolute sudden cut. That seems like it would have been humane. My sudden cut is my political voice, right? I am making a HUGE statement by not spending. AT & T is REALLY gonna hurt now.

Oh, and one more thing? Why is the American dialogue so envy driven? "I don't have so you shouldn't either." "I can't read at that level so no one should until I can." Why shouldn't we all celebrate the good benefits that certain people have and make it a goal to upgrade everyone else? Granted other smaller, industrialized, homogeneous countries already provide "good" to their citizens. Why is it the American Dream to make it out of the "have nots" to the "haves" instead of everybody having what is decent? Do the top 400 really DESERVE to have more than the rest of us by some invisible blessing and are they REALLY working harder than, let's say that Pakistani seamstress making my Walmart clothes? I chose my profession and I'll accept its limitations financially (even if I disagree with my culture's values) but why am I greedy if my kids can go to the doctor and dentist because I work hard and pay taxes like everyone else? And please, no union so I am already unplugged from the evil matrix.

3/26/'11
Fed: Household wealth plummets 23% in two years
One of the more alarming reports of the week -

CNNMoney -- The average American family's household net worth declined 23% in 3 years, the Fed Thursday.

A rare survey of U.S. households, first performed in 2007 & repeated in 2009 to gauge the effects of the recession, reveals the median net worth of households fell from $125,000 in '07 to $96,000 in '09....

Federal Reserve said the report offers a look at exactly how hard the recession hit families, and how they reacted.

Families that owned stock saw their portfolios drop by more than a 33%, $12,000 from $18,500, on average. The value of primary real estate holdings decreased by an average of $18,700.

And families took on more debt, pushing median total debt levels to $75,600 from $70,300. They also made less money, median household income dropped to $49,800 from $50,100.

High unemployment, rising food, medical costs, tanking stock portfolios, equity losses, make for a world of hurt for American families. Which makes the single-minded focus in DC on the deficit and austerity all the more inexplicable. And frightening for our future.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/26/960050/-Fed:-Household-wealth-plummets-23-in-two-years

more -
Krugman:

[J]obs now, deficits later was and is the right strategy. Unfortunately, it’s a strategy that has been abandoned in the face of phantom risks and delusional hopes. On one side, we’re constantly told that if we don’t slash spending immediately we’ll end up just like Greece, unable to borrow except at exorbitant interest rates. On the other, we’re told not to worry about the impact of spending cuts on jobs because fiscal austerity will actually create jobs by raising confidence.

How’s that story working out so far?
Not so great, if the Fed and its report is to be believed. Yes, the report's data is a year old, but while stock prices have rebounded, unemployment is still unsustainable, housing prices continue to fall, and food and medical costs continue to rise.

I value all the information and affirmation. Thanks. Lory, I enjoy your posts. We are a family of 2 educators both in the arts. I will get a nearly 8% cut because I only contribute to retirement and SS. My husband will get an over 12% cut both from retirement and healthcare contributions. And yes, we really don't make very much compared to our similarly educated colleagues in the Sciences and Business. We moved to Milwaukee 6 years ago for my husband's job and because we are in similar fields, it took nearly 2 years for me to gain solid ground in employment. For the past 5 years, we received 2% and 3% cuts, freezes on cost of living (my husband received no raise for receiving tenure), and now the additional 10%. In 6 years, our take home will have decreased by 15%. And yes, it is a good thing that because we fall in with the "artsy" crowd, my kids already love perusing Salvation Army wares! We will not miss the TV ultimately but it was the only monthly luxury we allowed ourselves since we keep both day and night hours and enjoyed DVR and staying connected to popular culture since we cull it often for our work and want to understand how entertainment affects arts of all sorts. We work through the summer in a low residency graduate degree program. I could not on my salary alone support my children (I earn 80% of below 40,000 but teach 8 courses a year--more than some of my tenure track colleagues. Most adjuncts earn 25% per course but my dept is 20% so I work as hard for less).

Lorey, I have frittered away my life, time and money training in the art of Dance. I teach Applied Anatomy, am a Laban Movement Analyst, and teach ballet, modern, composition, improvisation--so physical, theory, and creative classes. I also run my own dance company. I think if what I do and you do got together, all the obesity and aging related diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, osteoporosis, and the like might have some chance of prevention. I worked as a unit clerk in a hospital for 5 years while I put my ex-husband through nursing school and believe me, I think that if everyone had to work for a bit in a hospital, we might choose to live and eat differently than we do. Preventative medicine and intelligent approach to health would save us a lot. But pharmaceutical companies all have a "pill for that" and make a lot of money on our suspended disbelief of our own personal responsibility for our own bodies (smoking, excessive drinking and eating, no exercise anyone?) plus our need for "immediate" results instead of gradual and permanent lifestyle changes. But that would impede peoples' "freedom" to legislate and implement, right?

Also, what I do makes good argument for cultivating intelligence, the body, and the sophisticated development of the creative mind: http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/4gQJrR/socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm

Michael and other liberals, now that you are on a mission to discredit GE for not paying taxes, how can you justify your hero, Obama, naming the GE CEO Immelt as head of the President's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness? Nice choice, oh thats right, Immelt is a major donor to the left. That explains it!

And while you explaining, how bout enlightening us on Obama's outstanding leadership in the mid-east. Nice job on bombing Libya. Oh that's right, The Dem. Party is telling us it realy not a war. Tell that to those on the ground being bombed. I love Obama's comforting words... Opps, I forgot, his first public speech on Libya is scheduled for Monday. Hilary has been acting press. On foreign policy.

For Fiscal Conservative: Don't worry, I'll be working enough to not get back to this board ever--just a day's indulgence. I feel and encourage compassion for anyone who loses work and benefits, especially suddenly--can't imagine how hard losing your position and salary must have been and certainly you never deserved that to happen. I don't need any sympathy and certainly didn't ask for any. I know I am fortunate even with $900 I can't afford to lose disappearing from my take home in a couple of days. My comments were not extreme. My story is not extreme. What I find simultaneously fascinating and aversive on this thread is the harshness with which people of differing views speak to one another (and it is so easy to do when that person is just a bunch of text and not flesh and blood in front of you--you have insinuated that I am lying about my job and life costs. Why would I?). Are my sacrifices not enough for you? Shall I become jobless and homeless and my children be hungry for someone to feel better or sympathetic? I don't want the life of the top 400, just enough to live on modestly and to be able to offer my kids the potential for a better life than I have (I have less than my parents). Did it occur to you to be angry at the individuals who caused the economy to tank (and that wasn't Obama) as opposed to my minor irritation of a post (big alligator tears rolling down)? I hope life for you is better now and I sadly wish you felt the same towards me. Be well.

for better or worse, our growing public debt has put trillions into the pockets of the American people. There's an economic principle known as “Wagner’s law,” which holds that as a country gets wealthier, its tax burden tends to increase. Wagner’s law makes perfect sense: in a poor country, citizens are happy to have a paved road; in a middle-income country, they expect a public school on that road; and in the wealthiest countries in the world, the public expects safe air-traffic control to guide them into an airport where they can catch a cab to a world-class public university. As the expectations of what we want government to do rise, so do the tax revenues that are necessary to pay for it all.

Wagner’s law holds true for every country in the world except the United States, where conservative economic discourse prevails. Thirty years ago the Right convinced a lot of Americans they could enjoy tax cuts without losing out on any of the services they’d come to expect. That's a big part of why our public debt jumped from $997 billion when Reagan took office to over 14 times that number today.

the whole article - http://www.alternet.org/story/150371/five_fun_facts_about_the_%2414_trillion_national_debt/

Did you know - in 2008,we ranked 26th out of the 30 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in terms of our total tax burden (the share of our economy we fork over to the government), coming in almost 9 percentage points below the average of the group of wealthy nations.

1. We've Always Been In Debt

Before the first session of the U.S. Congress came to a close, the public debt stood at more than $75 million, and since that time it has never been paid down. In 1835, we came close – that year, the national debt stood at just under $34,000.

the complete article - http://www.alternet.org/story/150371/five_fun_facts_about_the_%2414_trillion_national_debt/

Do you know - China holds 9.5 percent of our outstanding debt. The largest lender to the U.S. government is the people of the United States – we own 42.1 percent of the national debt in the form of Treasury bills held in our pension funds, 401(K)s, etc.

And 4.6 trillion – about a third – is held by the government itself. Almost 18 percent of the T-bills outstanding are sitting in the Social Security trust fund, earning interest and making the retirement program incredibly secure despite all the claims to the contrary.

more data - http://www.alternet.org/story/150371/five_fun_facts_about_the_%2414_trillion_national_debt/

Republicans Leave More Debt Than Dems

Between 1960 and 2010, federal spending as a share of the economy has bounced around within a fairly narrow range of between 17.7 percent (under Eisenhower) and 21.8 percent (during the first George Bush's term in office).

Republicans are just as happy to spend, but they run on tax cuts, and the result is that since the middle of the last century, contrary to the “tax-and-spend” label, it's been Democrats who are far more conservative when it comes to keeping deficits under control than their Republican counterparts.

Ronald Reagan started his term with total debt outstanding of 930 million and increased total debt outstanding to $2.7 trillion. This is a 13.71% compound annual increase. He never balanced a budget.

Bush I started his term with outstanding debt of $2.7 trillion and increased total debt to $4 trillion. This is a 10.32% compounded annual increase. He never balanced a budget.

Clinton started with total debt outstanding debt of $4 trillion and increased total debt outstanding to $5.6 trillion. This is a 4.2% compounded annual increase. He balanced his last three budgets.

George W. Bush started with $5.6 trillion total outstanding debt and increased total outstanding debt to $10 trillion. That works out to a 9.8 percent annual increase – just slightly more than the rate it has grown during Obama's first years.

more here - http://www.alternet.org/story/150371/five_fun_facts_about_the_%2414_trillion_national_debt/

I just find it ridiculous that the argument has become "I have to pay for more of my health insurance so why don't the teachers?". Why aren't we asking instead "How have the huge corporations managed to make me pay for more and more of my benefits and I just went along with it?"
Here are some facts;

-The proposed 2-year WI budget at the beginning of the budget negotiation is no different now than it has been for the past 12 years - a projected 12% gap that then gets negotiated and changed until it becomes a live-able number. These numbers are also always somewhat fluid - this is a recession so there is less tax revenue because more people are not working.This is not a crisis - that's what the fear-based message is supposed to make us believe though.
-The current WI fiscal budget was basically balanced - until Walker gave Corporations a tax break and created a budget gap that he could then point to and say "We are broke, we need to fix this". I think if you are worried about your kids and grand-kids you should concentrate on the environmental protection rollbacks that are being created so that huge out of state mining and oil/gas concerns can come here and pollute their way to more profits. Our grandkids won't have to worry about paying for state or national debt, they'll be too busy looking for clean drinking water.

-Median CEO pay is 4x what it was in 1992. In that same period average middle-class pay has increased 0%. And this does not even capture the obscene amounts being paid to the Senior VP's, VP's, etc that then use some of that money to get targeted officials elected so they can continue the party with more self-serving legislation.
- In the 1950's corporate tax made up nearly 30% of our nations tax revenue. After years of loopholes allowing some mega corporations to avoid taxes altogether, corporations now contribute only 6% of our nations tax revenue pie. I contend that we have a problem mostly caused by the "haves" not paying their fair share, not because we are paying too much for public sector benefits.
- The top 5% of Americans wealthiest hold 65% of the wealth.

These things are not an accident, wake up.

I'd rather not wake up to you. This is horrible, hope I can sign a recall today to make me feel better.

Mark,

I don't understand the negativity, you should be happy that you live in a country where people can have different views without getting their heads chopped off. You have your views, and I have mine and I try to share the fact as I find them - and that is the difference. I am trying to share facts objectively and you are limited to tossing insults. Maybe the Kochs will start fracking for gas under your house first.

Jim B, do you think some of the dynamics of the worldwide economy in the present time is different than the 1950's? I guess my question is: how much could we raise corporate taxes and remove business incentives (loopholes, to some) without losing a substantial number of corporations or jobs that they provide? Businesses that can't leave Wisconsin are easier to press for taxes than those that can pick up and move to North Carolina. Businesses that can't leave the U.S A. are easier to press for taxes than those that can pick up and move to Brazil. If we all could know the "magic " percent that we could tax corporations and still retain them, we'd be better able to legislate tax policy. I sure hope that it is more than what some are paying now.

I love this country. That's why I am an informed voter.

It's so funny how the Koch's seem to be the left's biggest threat. I hope they do take my house, it's easier than selling.

Mike S-

Stay positive. I'm not sure it does any good to share information with most of the hard right on here, but my hope is that people on the fence will read it, do some independent research, and come to the same conclusion we have. We need to out-work them and reclaim our government, period. I'm not supportive of 100% of the Democratic programs and views either, but I know a scam when I see one and these fanatics have to go.

One of the reasons that corporations have insisted that employees pay more for their benefits is that health care costs have continued to skyrocket without respite. What an employer in the 1950's had to pay for an employee health care plan was so much less (even adjusted for inflation) than what an employer has to pay today. Often retirees were given health care plans also. Didn't seem such a huge expense back then. Another factor is life span. When people worked in factories with very little pollution or safety standards, they didn't live very long after retirement. Their employers weren't paying out retiree health care benefits and retirement benefits for longer periods of time than the employees had ever worked at their company. In the military one can retire after 20 years. He/she could be 38 years old and live to be over 100! The federal post office is now allowing workers to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service. I have read that the largest rate of growth in numbers is the folks over 100 years old. Anyway, these are a few of the factors to consider why there is more of an insistance on more contribution by employees to health care and retirement.

Correction: insistence. After I press submit and reread what I wrote, I always find grammar and spelling mistakes. Sorry.

Mark,

They won't take your house, they want you to continue to live in it and pay taxes so they don't have to. And when they frack for gas under it, your kids and grand-kids can start taking trips to the Oncology Department to try to get rid of the cancer they got courtesy of the Kochs. You say you are informed, but share no actual information or facts. Do you have any?

Lori,

I would agree that your statements make sense. Can you help me understand why it is that large corporations have been paying less and less of the national tax burden and CEO pay has exploded in that same time period? I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I don't think the way to solve the problems is on the backs of the public employees. This is absolutely nothing more than a power grab, there is no "budget crisis".

Bob II,

Go back and read through these posts and be honest with yourself about who is "spewing hatred". And then go do some research on the Koch brothers and their environmental record, their own brother sued them (and won) for the illegal polluting of Indian lands. And then go look up fracking and the health issues it is linked to - the Kochs are big supporters of this technology. You can vote any way you want - and I'm entitled to my slice of Democracy as well.

Jim B, Bob is well aware of the issues. He posts and argues well. If we keep discussions to facts I have found that I end up talking to myself. A friend of mine stated " You can always tell when you are talking to a Libertarian. They scatter like cockroaches when you start a fact based argument. "Yes, Bob. That was a demeaning statement. Not my statement but I have fun repeating it. As far as fact based argument the posts on this site speak for themselves.

For those of you that are trying to make sense of all this read a what others are saying. This is only the tip of the ice burg . Plenty of info our there. Just asking you to consider the content. Not the inferred message. The facts usually speak for themselves. If not, I understand. A few months ago I still had my blinders on too.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/02/how-the-other-guys-play
http://www.dirtyenergymoney.com/overview.php?type=politician
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/10/20/kochtopus-the-gathering-secret-corporate-billionaire-meetings-to-set-course-of-a-nation/

Keith,

Let me explain how this works for you. I write a post and include facts that can be researched and confirmed in minutes - even by you. If you want anybody to give you any credibility at all, you would respond with facts that would refute mine, etc, etc. By responding with statements like "you are delusional" which you then back up with zero factual information leads me to believe that you have no factual information. I don't know if this is because you can find no factual data, or worse - you haven't even bothered to try to find any.BTW, I actually support taxpayer-funded elections with no contributions allowed by anybody - corporate or individual. But under the current electoral rules if you want to compare George Soros with the Koch Bros then I would tell you that George Soros doesn't stand to make millions in WI and other states based on a political agenda. Now if you paid attention a bit earlier, you would recognize that this would be your opportunity to refute this with facts.

So much for Obama's 2011 NCAA bracket picks, Kansas lost and all the 1 seeds are ousted! Maybe he should concentrate on Presidential duties.

Jim B said: This is absolutely nothing more than a power grab, there is no "budget crisis".
-----------------------------------

So there is no budget crisis? It was invented by Walker in 2011? Let's go back just a few years and see what was said:

Paul Soglin, 2009: http://www.waxingamerica.com/2009/02/the-wisconsin-budget-crisis-whatdowedonow.html
State Bar, 2009: https://www.wisbar.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=News&CONTENTID=82765&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm
JSS on 2009 budget: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/69771807.html
More Soglin, 2009: http://www.waxingamerica.com/2009/05/solving-the-state-budget-crisis.html

So argue on how the State should handle its deficits, but don't loose all credibility by lying and say there is no budget crisis.

the tree , The very first thing walker did was raise your taxes by 117 million. Eugene has posted this above. Logic would tell me if we have 117 million to spend on favors we don't have to rob the private sector. Or how do you interpret that.

Hope some of you watched 60 minutes on 58 tonight and received some education on US tax policy and its negative effect on job creation in the USA, it gives incentive to locate plants overseas and not bring the profits home, by the way that also translates to less jobs here and more overseas. Keep on with your education of those others, sooner or later they may wake up, hopefully before it's too late. And enough on the Koch brothers bashing, they are entitled to there right to support their political beliefs just as well as the Union do. Dig a little and give credit for some good things the Koch brothers have worked for and you'll find some large worthwhile contributions and support for some worthy charities. How about the support of oil exploration for Brazil by none only than Obama and the current administration, that involves very deep, deep water drilling, reeks of hypocrisy from my perspective. Or does the support of Brazilian Petrobras have anything to do with a Mr. Soros and his heavy investment in Petrobras while he sold his American stocks. You decide. I would post the web links here but I admit to not being a computer wiz and don't know how to do it here, sorry.

My state taxes have decreased by 2.2% since Governor Walker took office. My HSA ((Health Savings Account) contributions are no longer subject to state taxes. This gives me more flexibility to manage my health care, free from unwanted government interference. I applaud this common sense move on the part of our state government. My HSA account has made me a much more cost-conscience consumer of health care services, as the money that I don't spend from this account accrues as a tax-free retirement account.

The tree, following was lead paragraph in one of your posts. I agree.

Rather than maintain a fair level of taxation, a right-wing fueled legislature created more and more tax loopholes, depriving Wisconsin of badly needed funds for essential programs. Those efforts, combined with a faltering national economy brought on by the combination of the war in Iraq and deregulation of the financial services industry leaves Wisconsin and other states reeling.

Joe I am so happy scott walker saved you so much money. See the post from EJ. Thats where the money came from.

Michael, I only included links from the Left to prove my point. The point was, in case you missed it, THERE WAS A BUDGET CRISIS PRIOR TO 2011. Why it happened and how it is dealt with is debatable, but not the fact there was/is a budget crisis.

Now deal with it.

Sorry, my feathers get ruffled easily on this site. Agreed. We don't live within the budget. How do we find center on which tools and more important to me is how many tools we use to fix not only the budget but our communities?

Michael, I'm afraid we are doomed. It doesn't matter who or what party is in office, I believe we are past the tipping point. Our system will coming crashing down. It will be painful. The key will be how we emerge from the ashes.

If our financial crises is over, why did the FDIC provide a temporary measure to insure unlimited amounts in checking accounts? The max used to be $250,000.00. Now unlimited for checking accounts, not savings or money market accounts. Why? What are they afraid of and who will they protect? Corporations, Bankers and Wall Street?
http://www.fdic.gov/deposit/deposits/insured/temporary.html

I think we are all screwed and Madison is just a distraction (and a big time waster). I need a drink.

Way ahead of you!! :)

Mark, EJ is a member of the community. A neighbor. A friend. A wife. A mother. A citizen. An educated and productive member of society. And the long arm of government just reached into her pocket , took her money and gave it to Joe.

I thought that this article was interesting. Illinois made some different decisions than Wisconsin and this is part of the backlash:

http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2011/03/caterpillar-threatens-to-leave-illinois-over-taxes.html

Illinois raised its taxes as many people have suggested that Wisconsin should have done instead of increasing business incentives (called business loopholes, corporate welfare, paying off rich friends, etc. by others) and trying not to raise taxes. Is Caterpillar bluffing? That remains to be seen. We have an opportunity to watch over the next year or so to see if Illinois made the right decision. Caterpillar employs 23,000 people in the state of Illinois. If they do leave and other companies follow suit, their economy is going to be in more dire straits. Indiana is another case study. Its governor provided Scott Walker his "road map" for the fiscal decisions he is trying to implement. How is that state doing? Still at 8.8% unemployment, but dropping. Over time we can judge which actions actually helped their states and which actions hurt them.

Lory, Are you content with the tug of war politics? Are you so sure that those in office are benevolent entities working in your behalf? What is wrong with free markets? Caterpillar sucks government funds too. Do you see Caterpillars business products as being in great demand in 50 years? Can you instead see Caterpillar employees putting their same skills to work manufacturing say green products? And please forgive me if I fight tooth and nail to stop libertarian advances in our democracy. I believe in a free society. Free of government intrusion in my personal affairs. A society that embraces science, knowledge, the arts and gives you and I the same protection, and takes from you and I a fair and equitable contribution to support that society. Whether you are rich or poor, a corporation or a citizen. I have included the post of caterpillars welfare to you previously. How is this for a business incentive. You move here and things will be fair. And in exchange for your decision to move your business here we will provide you an equitable tax structure,good public schools and a motivated and skilled workforce willing to ensure your success. Communities united in common goals and willing to negotiate differences. Or we can continue the course of throwing money on declining technology, declining demand, and very environmentally unfriendly practices. All in the name of MONEY. My grandkids won't benefit from throwing money at Huge corporations on the public dole.

Mike,

So true. I wonder how much time and money is wasted in this country each year as we roll back the policies of the "enemy" party and install our own, and vice-versa. And the middle class pays for all of it. I really think the only answer for the future is campaign finance reform - stop the unions, corporations, or anybody else for that matter from contributing to elections period. Then maybe we would get the best and brightest to choose from, not the lesser of 2 evils.

Joe, Your statement below.
Are you saying that you are promoting yourself as arbiter of everyone's "fair piece of the pie"? By your logic, we should attempt to draw arrows, in a personal manner, between all income redistribution and judge all on their individual merit to society. The more I think about that, the more I like it! Your talking about a merit-based economy. You should run for public office on that platform. You might even get my vote!

rebuttal: The private sector has been the bench mark in public sector pay for as long as I can remember. I am indeed in favor of redistribution of taxes.But it would be to redirect the taxpayers resources from profitable business to other more urgent needs . I have no desire for public office in fact would much rather be fishing. In stead I an getting used to an 80 hour work week repaying my debt to society for supporting Jim Ott, Roberta Darling and Jim Sensenbrenner for office. I keep looking forward.

Lory, I f I have given you the impression that I am against business or large corporations I apologize. I think we can agree that business is an integral part of our society. I've stated I am conservative . I stand by that statement. I think the time has come to stop supporting large profitable corporations with taxpayer money. We're Broke to coin a phrase. Not that that's party mantra or anything. I will waste my time posting another link for you. Can you honestly tell me that we can't do better? Another Point Lory. When the world is saturated with the caterpillar joy global mining conglomerate on the tax dole I would prefer them to be ready for the the next growth cycle . If after reading this brief snapshot of our tax dollars you can say that this is the direction we should continue to go in then I will concede your position and ponder why we are so far apart.

http://www.sociology.vt.edu/course/socprobs/corporatewelfare.html

Lory, Hold your position, you are right on the money, Michael is convoluted in his responses and seems to be hell bent on dismissing anything that is not from the left. More for welfare, what jobs and products does that produce? He can't seem to accept that the other side has anything of value ideas or otherwise to add to the dialogue. Don't let Michael distract you form your course of discourse. You on the other hand have exhibited an open mind which allows for the ideas of others to be of benefit for the good of all.

Rak, how have I convoluted. In case you didn't hear me state before. I am conservative. All I'm saying is that I have a hard time understanding a far right position when I am being answered to with mantra thought of in Arizona, Repeated as if it was a known fact and ending the argument with some demeaning phrase. The one I hear the most of course is that
I am delusional. In the seventies we dealt with the issue of social welfare. A system of abuse where the more kids you had the more you got on the dole. Welfare mothers drove new cadillacs. Everyone was incensed. Now I am incensed that we have transferred that abuse to profitable corporations. My mind may be wide open to anything positive you have to add. So RAK, where is my convolution?

Rak, as you probably already know from extensive knowledge on me and what I think and what I accept that
I have included links that contain conservative think tanks and their conclusions that Corporate welfare stifles competition and innovation. Oh, that must have been a left moment for them or was it a right moment for me.