Primary school in Denmark is called "Public School" (Folkeskole). Attendance at primary school is compulsory for a minimum of 10 years (aged 6 to 16).

"Mothers or fathers should be paid to stay home and raise them."

Is this person for real?!?!

@Greg...The schools also function as daycare facilities before the child reaches official enrollment age. Denmark also allows home leave for up to 24 months at 60% of wages. At age 14 the students in Denmark take track tests. The tests place students in either apprenticeship programs or gymnasium programs. Post secondary education is paid for by the state and students receive a stipend for living expenses.

Lyle, Just pointing out that the OP was off by 2 years.

Do you teach without testing?

Sorry Lyle, but you apparently have no clue as to why standardized testing is in place. First of all, WKCE testing, is used to evaluate if district's curriculum aligns to the state criteria. It is not used to take a snapshot of the individual child and what they know, but rather to assess collectively if the grade level be tested, matches the states minimal expectations.

Don't feel bad for being misguided and uneducated; the unions and teaching professionals have either tried to mislead the public, or genuinely don't have a clue as to the methodology or intent of the test results.

@Brian Dey...I know what WKCE is all about. Part of my formal education included testing research. I know what testing can be used for and what it is shouldn't be used for. The whole idea of standardized testing for students below the fourth grade is insane.

I respectfully disagree. With many districts having introduced 4 yr. old kindergarten and in some cases, 3 yr old kindergarten; I feel it a necessity to to monitor curriculum and results to justify taxpayer dollars being spent on such programs. If I am to compare results of these programs only by waiting until the 4th grade, my data analyisis is not reflective of the actual results.

I'm anxious to hear your definition of assessment. Your perspective does not seem to be aligned with the actual intent. I have spent many hours in meetings with educational leaders who would disagree with your definition, unless of course you mean that it is an assessment tool to determine curriculum alignment with state requirements.

Dismissing it as insane without concrete evidence is itself insane.

@Brian Dey....You are confusing administrative needs with student benefits. K3 and K4 have nothing to do with it and is clearly a straw man fallacy. There are many ways to ascertain compliance to curriculum standards and you know that. If you are truly interested in student learning, then you wouldn't force some kind of standardized tests on children. Please read some Piaget on child development.

Again, I beg to differ with your assessment. There is no confusion. It is both. The administration needs to know if a) the curriculum is aligned with state requirements, and b) whether teachers are teaching to the curriculum. Standardized testing meets those needs.

Students benefit from more accountability of the teacher so that time is spent teaching the child what they are supposed to be taught. Teachers hate standardized testing because they feel the need for more freedom of how they teach, which testing doesn't interfere with. It just makes sure that they are teaching to the state requirements.

And as for the K3 and K4, it again is for accountability. We have these programs that we are paying for with no understanding of its successes or failures until the 4th grade. Gaining that knowledge will benefit children and the programs so that we know if the intent of the start-ups of these programs is being met.

It is all about accountability, a word in academia that is not well liked. The funny thing is that teachers test often to see if the child is learning the taught material, and hopefully to assess whether they are reaching the children.

Again, don't feel bad if you are not understanding of why we test. Many highly trained professionals canot grasp the concept.

Sherri- it's "lose"

Loose?? LOL!!!!!! I can't help but laugh when a teacher comments but fails to spell correctly! {:-D)

and Mike, you do not make typing errors ever?

Well, Jean and Mike clearly have nothing else to bring to the discussion, other than to deride a finger left a half-second too long on a letter on the keyboard or touchscreen...

Bren-I chose not to comment on this because I don't feel the need to comment REPEATEDLY on EVERY story that might somehow turn into an argument about Act 10 and Scott Walker.
I did find it ironic that a TEACHER would make a mistake like that!

Jean, so...nothing to bring to the discussion? ; )

With an advantage like that, why hasn't Sweden or Denmark become the world's dominant superpower yet? I bet if we reduced the size and population of our nation to a small area the size of Sweden surrounding our capitol, cut military and foreign aid activities to match Sweden, and adopted Sweden's education system we would never have to worry about competing with the likes of China or Russia again.

@jbw...All of Scandinavia only has a population of around 24 million. Germany and the Low Countries have similar education systems. Therefore, we are looking at approximately 120 million and they are turning out highly educated people. Also, Northern Europe is an economic powerhouse.

Still pissed about your wife having to kick in a little towards her benefits? My school district is doing better, thanks to the Governor's reforms.

He also didn't complete his own education...

Greg so glad that your district is doing well , now. it will not be in the near future. It will not have money, qualified teachers, nor successful students. Look deeper into what is going on, please.
As far as benefits, there was not really fight about "kicking in." The amount continues to rise, since WRS % changes every Jan and not everybody had their insurance fully paid. My local district always has paid 20% or more. These benefit payments were given because over the years, districts did not give pay raises. The benefits were delayed and now much of that has been taken - in your job, does your employer promise you something and then say "oh sorry, you no longer get that?" This should not have been a pay as you go system in districts. That money was earned and should have been put away for people.

in your job, does your employer promise you something and then say "oh sorry, you no longer get that?"

*******************

Over the past several years, many folks have been told precisely that - if they haven't been told that the job they have is no longer available to them. People have been asked to take pay cuts (or find another job), contribute more to their health benefits while absorbing higher copays and deductibles, had pensions, if they had them, converted to IRAs, had employer contributions to 401K plans decreased or eliminated, had additional responsibilities added to their jobs to make up for those let go, or to accommodate for increased business in an uneven economy, etc.

Sound familiar? Then think about where the money to run schools and compensate teachers comes from....

allison, The second option was teacher lay offs, is that what you would have preferred?

Hmm....

For liberals, it would appear that money alone = success.

Never mind the FACT that American public schools are currently the second most funded schools in the world, and yet, we're achieving 9th place results, or lower. Obviously, money has nothing to do with the success of public education performance and as taxpayers, we're already getting royally hosed for the results currently being achieved!

As Joe Biden might say about Patzfahl's clearly erroneous conclusion, "What a bunch of malarkey!"

allison pratt wrote: "...These benefit payments were given because over the years, districts did not give pay raises...."

Thanks to the Qualified Economic Offer, teacher's were guaranteed a 3% pay raise every year. I went several years without a raise. In fact, my take home pay was lowered because my health insurance premiums went up.

And that 3.8% QEO raise was after everything else was costed out first. What was went on the pay - .02%, .01%. It was NOT 3.8% raise during the QEO years.

Allison- You couldn't be more wrong on benefits and salary increases. Every year health premiums were going up in excess of 15% annually for the past two decades. So in essence, you received a raise through your demand to keep the health insurance intact. Yet, you received at least the QEO raise of 3% each of those years while inflation was almost non-existent, receiving far and away better than COLA while the rest of society was taking a cut.

I didn't see teachers out there marching when factory union workers were losing not only their benefits, but in some cases 20% cuts in pay. Get over it, the taxpayers have drawn a line in the sand; take the cuts or be unemployed.

May districts are way over-staffed by a reflection of the state's per teacher ratio, which reflects staffing of 10 to 12 per classroom, even though we know that isn't the case. What are those other teachers doing if they are being counted , yet we have 30 in the class?

You lost twice on this issue in elections; you lost twice in the courts already and have some half-baked liberal judge who is poised to lose again. Why doesn't your union start fighting to get those teachers that aren't teaching, back in the classroom instead of wasting more of the taxpayers money on bogus lawsuits to line your pockets?

Because, once again, it's all about the adults; not the children.

Allison, I have been thinking the same thing about reading time in class. Last year my 5Ker who caught on to reading fast has been bored, too much independent reading time and they extended it this year for 5K with my other son. Too much for a young child to be sitting and left to their own to decide what to read with and without reading partner. I think even the teacher was skeptical about the time allotted for this and how it would work, but she probably can't say anything anymore with ACT 10. I feel lucky my kids are smart and catch on quickly. It's all about using the time wisely in class and keeping their interest that keeps them learning and progressing.

"but she probably can't say anything anymore with ACT 10"

WHY???

Collective bargaining wasn't only about teacher salaries, Greg.

Bren, Are you stating that public school teachers can not contribute to the education process without the backing of unions and collective bargaining? Please site some positive effects that collective bargaining had on the education of children.

And layoffs have been going on too and not just young teachers.
What does
"but she probably can't say anyting anymore with ACT 10" mean?

Allison, it means, at least here, that ACT 10 has taken away the teacher opinion in the classroom as to what it effective, now the school board and superintendent decides curriculum, etc. I can tell a difference from before ACT 10 and now with my kids teachers.

Greg, Menoparent answered the question below very well.

Below?

Well, it was below when I typed my comment! "Above."

; )

I disagree with Menoparent's conclusions. I see Act 10 providing for more local control. If Menoparent is seeing this in the Meno district it is the fault of the school board, not of the Act. In my district the teachers and school board are reporting unprecedented cooperation and improvements.

Hoffa concurs with Greg!

The reading assessment is a TIMED test that assesses letter, sound and number recognition, sounding out nonsense words, matching words to print, less and greater numbers, etc. If flagged these children are said to be "at risk". These are the skills that I am to teach. children should not be at risk and put into a group that says they are without instruction and a chance to learn first. These children a 5 years old whose brains are not wired to attend for more than 15 minutes. This is great for some and they are ready, but no ALL. Even that special needs child who is in a wheel chair not capable of speech or focus needs to have these materials put in front of them so that there is evidence that they have been tested. So inappropriate.
Cognitive thinking skills need to be the forefront. The brain is such a sophisticated organ and learning is a complex process. Many interrelated cognitive skills contribute to academic and occupational success. Broadly categorized, these skills include Attention, Working Memory, Processing Speed, Long-Term Memory, Visual Processing, Auditory Processing, Logic and Reasoning. These skills need to be present before any critical thinking skills can be developed. These skills are interdependent. Often they overlap in their work with other skills, as all the bits of information entering the mind are processed and acted upon.

John- Of course you are teaching to the test. The test tells us if you are teaching the assigned curriculum and if the district's curriculum aligns with state requirements. Left to your own accord, how do we know what you are teaching our kids? Sorry, but the world of academia left to its own accord has not performed very well. And I want to know that my child's english teacher isn't teaching my children his/hers politics.

That is it, Louise. Everyone needs to Check out the Globalist Educational Agenda Universal Education (i.e. Indoctrination.A critical component to ensuring Globalist domination and control society has been control over the educational system of a country. The principal organization in this regard is UNESCO, an organization founded by Julian Huxley who also founded the Eugenics Society and the World Health Organization (WHO). The purpose of UNESCO and government controlled education is to indoctrinate/brainwash the young into adopting a particular view of history and the world in which they live in order to create a more compliant servant/worker. whenever a country is invaded/conquered one of the first organizations entering the country is UNESCO in order to re-educate the young to to adopt a particular world view so that the conquered society can be integrated into the system desired by the conquerors. the desired outcome is that of a dumbed down/ignorant population incapable of critical thought. Look up "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt. She figured it out when working in the Dept of Ed under Reagan.Most grants to scientists and other academics at the university level come from the elite through their control of their foundations. The elite steer the direction of research by giving money for certain projects while not funding other avenues of research. All academics are dependent on these grants and are controlled lackeys for the elite.

Wow, I can't believe all these teachers advocating for less reading time. The emphasis is there because you have not been doing a good job teaching our children to read, as evident from our poor reading results. And our districts are requiring more from you because you are not following curriculums or your districts curriculum doesn't require you teach reading skills that are required by the state.

Seriously teachers, you are expected to do more in the academics because of the onset of 4 yr old kindergarten. Please, just do your job and let us make sure you are getting the curriculum required; then follow it.

I did not do standardized testing below age eight, so your conclusion is totally stupid.

Karen Schaft -

Please, I just know you have more class and humanity than that.

Everyone, at least on the Patch, knows that there is no one "as dull and unimaginative as Greg"...

John, You and Karen are so bright and have such great imaginations, you guys proved it so well here. I really wish I could hang out with you two, but I will never be that hip. Where do you guys come up with these witty posts? They are sooo awesome. I think it would be real neat if you both included me in more of your posts. Our future generations need people to look up to, Karen and John you are obviously those people.

I didn't go to kindergarten. I started 1st grade when I was 6. When I did start school we learned reading, writing, arithmetic and religion starting in 1st grade. We didn't watch Disney movies or go on field trips. Social skills came naturally as that is what we were taught at home. We were there to learn not be entertained.

Social skills do not come naturally and are not always taught at home - how to solve a problem, look people in the eye when you speak, wait your turn when there are 23 ahead of you, listen to another speak to hear their point of view, understand what the different feelings are and how you affect those, being respectful, responsible (independent), delayed gratification and more.
There are no Disney movies and few field trips. Kids have to be entertained because that is what society has taught them things must be like. Fast colorful, engaging. if teachers dont present like that, kids are gone. Big business has made that happen too - video games, movies, toys.
Different set of rules than years ago. The state made kindergarten mandatory 2 years ago. Before that, not child needed to attend until 6 years of age-first grade.

@mau...Since you first started school back five or more decades, the education profession has much more knowledge about learning and childhood development. Beginning with socialization is recognized as being much more important than actual academics.

Agreed, socialization is of tremendous importance, because the lack of social awareness skills can lead to many problems later, not the least of which include employability. I'm sure most of us know someone in our field who is brilliant/highly competent yet moves from job to job because of inability to get along with management and/or peers. Socialization makes for an improved quality of life.

As someone who had strong parental support before attending school and excellent teachers, in retrospect I'm glad that I wasn't allowed to push forward as I wanted (I was reading at age 4 and participating in music-based theory and mathematics. As I "said," strong parental support.). In the long term, the instruction in social skills are what have paid off for me the most. Information-based learning should continue throughout life.

VP Biden must have missed the social skill class when they taught respect. President Obama must have missed the class that taught you to look people in the eye when they speak.. Both of them missed the class that taught you to listen to another speak to hear their point of view

Every day when my son came home from school, I asked him what he did in school. Many times his answer was, watch a Disney movie.

I was also a classroom helper and chaperone so I know what activities went on and how often.

@mau...Why are you bringing the election into the discussion on kindergarten testing?

Then he should get a civil engineering degree to talk about infrastructure...and a medical degree to talk about health services.. and a pilots license to ride in a plane...and a....and a...

Greg, Scott Walker cut nearly a billion dollars from K-12 education and is now trying to open the door for privatized testing of kindergartners. Since I don't recall that he has interfered in infrastructure, medical/health services or pilot licensing (other than the Milwaukee County Mental Health services), why do you try to make a comparison?

Introductory compare/contrast conceptualization is one of the valuable educational components taught in kindergarten. The ability to discern patterns. Had your brain developed a better understanding, your response would have been relevant. Greg: Another argument for focusing on activities that support cognitive development in kindergarten.

; )

@Greg...A degree in anything would be nice.

The only pattern is that you a very vocal Walker hater.

As Governor, Walker or anyone else has to make decisions about many things. The Governor uses resources that have the education degree, or other education as the decision may require. This is management 101. Barrett has a law degree and his police department is screwed blue, so much for you degree snobs.

Why is a piece of paper so important to liberals? Don't actions speak louder than words?

JRH -

My company will not hire any salaried employee - not even an Executive Assistant - unless they have a college degree, not an associate (2-yr) but a full 4-yr college degree. I did not set the standard; it has, however, been prevalent at the bulk of most major companies for decades.

Had you, at any level, interacted at all with reality you would certainly understand this very, well-known fact…

@lyin' John Wilson -

So, your company would have passed on William H. Gates III, Steve Jobs, Kirk Kerkorian, etc.

That's not saying very much about your company, is it?

JRH -

Boffa, I believe I stated, "I did not set the standard."

We also do a full pre-employment hair follicle drug test

A PSI [Personality Screening Inventory] YOU would never pass…

A complete criminal background check

Depending upon the position and security level required a Lie Detector Test and a MMPI [Minnesota Muli-phasic Personality Inventory] YOU would never pass either…

“So, your company would have passed on William H. Gates III, Steve Jobs, Kirk Kerkorian, etc.”

YES, we definitely would have passed on all of these Control Freaks, especially, “etc.”; we need people who play well with each other, are great abstract thinkers, collaborators, and are not controlled by ego and money…

@lyin' John Wilson -

So in other words, your company isn't interested in successful leaders.

Good to know!

@Greg....Degree snobs? If Walker was interviewed to work in management positions, he wouldn't get past the screener without a degree. Should we, as the employer, of elected officials hold them to a lower standard than business holds their hired employees? He only lacked one semester to graduate and receive his degree, what happened?

You people and your high regards for degrees really troubles me. As far as Walker's qualifications, the state requires that you are a) a citizen of the state, b) you are over the age of 18, c) and that you have not been a convicted felon. He meets the qualifications.

That is just the dumbest argument. He cut state aid, but not the ability to raise those funds locally. Why don't you run for school board in your community and seek referenda to give those teachers back their funding. Let's see, the sky didn't fall and teachers are brought back down to the realities of the economy. Whether you pay them $50K or $100K, it doesn't matter as long as they are producing poor results.

@Brian Dey...Hits to close to home, huh?

How so Lyle? Because I do not hold a degree? Does that somehow make me infereior to you? I sat on boards with people who held masters and doctorates, but had the common sense of a rock. Do you fall into that category?

Lyle Ruble
6:22 am on Monday, October 15, 2012

@Greg....Degree snobs? If Walker was interviewed to work in management positions, he wouldn't get past the screener without a degree. Should we, as the employer, of elected officials hold them to a lower standard than business holds their hired employees? He only lacked one semester to graduate and receive his degree, what happened?

I'd guess that Lyle, the degree snob, was absent or high the day that elected officials were discussed in his high school civics class. Lyle, we have a thing called an election, it's kinda like an interview, but the electorate is the screener and they get to decide if someone is qualified. I find it ironic that a degree snob would require a degree to run for office, yet would not require I.D. to vote for that person. Since the electorate is the screener, and logically you would not hire a screener without a degree, should we not require a degree to vote?

I lived in a Socialist country for a time and the circumstances were precisely as you describe. Working-class and "poor" children were sorted into potential-non potential groups very early, and sorted again in high school. It wasn't right that only students who excelled within very narrow instructive parameters would be given focus.

Lyle- What a load of crappy, crap, crap. It is used to hold the teachers and the districts accountable to what the state requires. I do agree that testing should be done every year. We do now from 4th through 10th grades. We pretest are Kindergarten students to have a baseline. So it tells me that if we add all grades below, that according to you, that the testing will be more effective. I agree!

@mau...APGAR? You've got to be kidding. What does your comment have to do with the subject in discussion? Taking the ACT was strictly voluntary and his journeyman's test was also voluntary. There is a measurable purpose to the voluntary tests that your son has taken. What is your point?

I agree with your post. At what age/grade do you think testing would be effective?

Hoffa I am a conservative parent, I'm not sure you read my post but my child has been testing poorly since 3rd grade and NEVER received any extra help! Even when I went directly to the principle with my concerns. Now he is being threatened with not graduating because of low test scores!! If they did what you say and used the information to identify and help low performers I would be in favor of them. But, at least for us, that was not done. My son takes challenging classes, he participates in class, completes all his homework and can have a discussion about classroom topics. But does not test well. So he is being punished because in my opinion his test scores make the school look bad! Why didn't they give him help when I asked for it? I had to request he be tested in elementary school because I believed he couldn't read when the teacher told me he could. When they finally got around to testing him he was reading two grade levels below what the teacher said he was BUT he tested very high in math, so guess what they told me? His scores averaged out and he wasn't eligible for any help. I did what a responsible parent should and paid for him to go to a learning center outside of school. But he still tests poorly. I'm not sure what the answer is but for us it's not standardized testing.

@lakecountrymom -

Your problem appears to lie in timed standardized performance based testing, as opposed to assessment based testing, and Hoffa wholly concurs with your opinion of performance based testing - it isn't very fair and rarely is it indicative of educational performance, as some just aren't good test takers.

While performance based testing is necessary to a certain extent, the conditions under which they're administered automatically causes skewed results.

The fact that Walker is wanting to implement more assessment based tests, as opposed to performance based tests, is a logical step in increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of public education. However, it's up to the teachers to learn from those tests and apply the appropriate courses of action to the individual students. But of course, this would mean more work having to be done by the teachers, which the teachers' union always stands firmly against.

Walker is on the right track - what remains to be see is where the teacher's priorities truly lie, although we've already been given some indicators with the fraudulently stated sick-outs, Capitol occupation, using schools as Democratic Party recruitment centers, etc.

Memorization and regurgitation is not learning - understanding is learning.

JRH -

To Doffa every topic can and must be about D's or R's... In case you missed it, this is about kindergarten children taking TESTS to assess their READING COMPREHENSION...

It is patently obvious that you would have failed at any age you would have taken the test…

@lyin' John Wilson -

Did you even read Hoffa's comments? If so, then apparently your reading comprehension is in serious need of some work!

This has nothing to do with the union.Why do you say that speaking out against these reforms is not speaking for children? That is exactly what is going on since children have no voice in this. Have you been in a classroom for a day? Get in there and you might understand.What do you mean assessment test is different than performance. Children are grouped according to these tests. Not against reforms, but make them meaningful and appropriate for children. These are not. I am not a blue fister. All will fall under the tyranny! Watch out

@allison pratt -

If this isn't political, then how come many on this board, including the very first comment and comments made by you, have made it a political issue?

"All will fall under the tyranny! Watch out"

But you claim not to be a blue-fister!

Yeah, OK!

I am a conservative. Check out the Globalist Agenda - tyranny is the goal.

@allison pratt -

Who's goal is tyranny? And to what end exactly?

Is this some kind of kool-aide drinkers conspiracy theory?

And how does this 'Globalist Agenda' relate to this story, if you could be precise?

No conspiracy theory - it is real. Do some research. It applies here because of the goals in education that they have - testing is a big part of it. The globalist movement is an alliance based on self-interest of the private international financiers and the royal, dynastic and hereditary land owning families of Britain, Europe and America which over the years have intermarried to create a self regenerating power structure that through lies and deception seeks to control everything and everyone on earth. Through their control of the ability to create money, they are able to exercise control over all the power centers of society including the corporations, the media, culture creation, the educational system, the historical societies, the political system, the military, religion, foundations and other NGOs, medicine, and law. Over time they have extended their network of control to include elites from countries all over the world working towards the same end.

@allison pratt -

OK then! You may want to check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQWNfuXXIS4

@Tosa720 -

Again, you're confusing performance based tests and assessment based tests. Assessment based tests can only help to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of public education.

Hoffa has never liked standardized performance based tests because of the conditions under which they're administered, but recognizes a need for some type of performance based standard.

I must also say that the expectations of a Kindergartener now are much different than when I was in Kindergarten 30 some years ago. I came from what I would call a literacy rich home, and yet my half day Kindergarten class still focused on teaching basic letter identification. We learned about the Letter People. Mr. T had tall teeth and said /t/. Miss A went achoo and said /a/. Students now are very quickly introduced to sight words and are learning reading strategies. The 4K program is now replacing what we used to do in Kindergarten and, by and large, the students rise to meet the challenge. But, there is still no substitute for what I was blessed with, and that is a literacy rich home.

@Tosa720 -

Well then, seeing as how every child's need/circumstances are unique and different, then mass education is by its nature inefficient and ineffective, right? So why continue to fund such a broken system? Shouldn't parents just be charged with the responsibility to properly educate their young children?

@JRH -- Because some children have needs that are simply beyond the means of their parents to deal with? The blind, the hearing impaired, the profoundly physically and cognitively disabled.

I'm of two minds about this. Back when I was in school, parents with children like this were out of luck and on their own. The public schools did not provide for the education of children with exceptional needs. That left more resources for the average child. But do we want to return to that system?

@Randy1949 -

Taxpayers cannot afford to fund individual private teachers for every student - it's unrealistic. There has to be some standards imposed in public education. Perhaps if we weren't spending 80%+ of school district budgets on teacher's salaries and benefits, there'd be more money to address the needs to special students in the mass education model?

@JRH -- what would you rather spend the money on than the teachers, who do the actual work of the schools? What is a school, other than the building, the textbooks and the teachers?

@Randy1949 -

Decent text books would be one thing, as many schools claim not to have funding for such, or perhaps technology oriented programs that include an audio/visual method of teaching as opposed to book/lecture. More hands on experiences, like lab experiments. There's lots of things that the money could be spent on that would be more effective.

Remember, once a child is able to read and comprehend sufficiently, the hard part is pretty much done and most of the teaching/learning that follows is done by the students themselves - the teacher is merely a guide and is there for support if questions arise.

I think I'll disagree with you just a bit on the use of electronics and video games. Video games DO teach problem solving -- if at first you don't succeed, go back and try it again until you learn the key for beating the level. That is a useful life skill, especially in the computer age.

My grandson turned two back in July, and already he could work his mother's iPad better than some adults. He is learning to recognize symbols and to navigate several levels of folder icons to get to exactly what he wants, which is usually an episode of PBS Kids or a song video he tries to sing along to. This is memory training and graphics processing. I expect he'll be able to teach me how to use my first cell-phone in a few years.

@John Wilson....I constantly hear from instructors at colleges and universities that a good share of entering freshmen are not ready for college level work. The chief complaint is the ability to read, write and to think critically. My son is teaching the philosophy of critical thinking to college freshmen and sophomores in the Bay Area and he is shocked how unprepared they are. This is a required class for all California state funded schools. Out of a class of thirty, a third of the class shouldn't be there, let alone in college. He's even had students try to cheat through Blue Book exams. Sad, very sad.

Greg...I think you misread me. The law is the law for a lawyer, and science is science for a doctor. It is what it is. There isn't too much leeway. The laws of science are not abstracts. Education is/can be very abstract e.g. analysis of poetry or art or creating a short story, or analyzing why bullying is bad and sharing might be good etc.

Dave, I disagree. Science, law or baking bread can be just as abstract as teaching. In most all professions there is the human element. My professions have called for analysis and creativity on a daily basis.

@NObama 2012 -

That's actually a valid point if backed up by data, which Hoffa believes that it is to some extent - perhaps if you had explained your initial comment as you did here, you wouldn't have been labeled a racist as quickly as you were by others.

Then I must be doing something right. I'm having trouble locating your original post. Did the Patch editors agree with me about its content?

AWD -

Sounds like a great argument for SMALLER GOVERNMENT to me!

Craig -

What I am afraid of: waste, costs, results, usefulness of data, and more privatization of public schools...

We rank 9th in science in the world.

We rank 10th in Math in the world.

Please check out that attached link to see how much money we pay for that honor, compared 11 other industrialized public education systems…

WE SHOULD ALL BE AFRAID!

http://mat.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

@lyin' John Wilson -

If you admit that funding/money isn't the problem, then why are you so opposed to Walker's reforms?

Hey John I am with you on waste, costs, etc.
What is wrong with trying some new ideas though?
Obviously what we have been doing isn't working very well.

JRH -

You take many liberties with what I write; put succinctly, YOU LIE MORE THAN LYIN’ RYAN!

THAT’S A REAL ACCOMPLISHMENT!

“If you admit that funding/money isn't the problem…” Those are YOUR WORDS… and your reading comprehension really SUCKS!

I STATED:

“What I am afraid of: waste, costs, results, usefulness of data, and more privatization of public schools...”

MONEY, particularily, TAXPAYER MONEY is ALWAYS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME…

Is that the only way you can get attention is to LIE ABOUT SOMEONE’S POST?

@lyin' John Wilson -

Now you're lying about your own previous comment!

"Please check out that attached link to see how much money we pay for that honor, compared 11 other industrialized public education systems"

OK, so, we spend the second most on public education funding in the world, but we're only achieving 9th place results or lower.

How exactly did Hoffa misrepresent your comment?

Obviously, the problem with our education system isn't that we don't spend enough money on it, as we're currently getting ripped off for the money that we are expending on it!

So, what's your point exactly, and how is it different than Hoffa's?

JRH –

"Please check out that attached link to see how much money we pay for that honor, compared 11 other industrialized public education systems…" [SARCASM!]

We spend 810 BILLION [THE MOST] with 11 other countries that far exceed us in results that pay between 42 BILLION, the low, to 160 BILLION, the high… only to achieve a 9th place in Science and a 10th place in Math… Yeah, BOFFA, what an HONOR…

PLEASE TRY READING COMPREHENSION!

Similarly, you telling Lyle that you ignore extremes as a matter of course and they go away.

We probably should have ignored Hitler and al Qaeda too… Oops, George Bush tried that didn’t he?

@Steve...This comment says a great deal about you.

So private education is about making money and public education is about politics and neither is about the children?

To the extent that it's true, it's been that way for a long, long time. And yet, somehow, we are one of the (if not the) leading countries for technological, medical, scientific and a myriad of other innovations. Somehow our children have managed to overcome the challenges of educational systems, both public and private, that supposedly don't take them into consideration in a serious way.

How is that possible?

I know you didn't comment on private education. I did.

So children aren't afforded an ideal educational environment. There are probably as many opinions about what that entails as there are school systems across this country. As for the ends not justifying the means, that's not necessarily true. If we're producing, in this country, the kinds of results we are despite varying opinions as to what is and what isn't the proper educational environment, maybe the means are appropriate as-is at any given time. Maybe the resilience of kids, their ability to cope with less than perfect circumstances is what has allowed them to succeed and overcome the roadblocks an inconsistent education puts before them.

Children are children. They're not adults with a full set of adult-sized rights. They've always been chattel to an extent until they reach the age of majority as determined by the society in which they live. Better chattel getting an education, as flawed and as challenging as it might be to do so, than chattel working the fields or worse. And again, look at the progress not only this country, but others, have made with less than perfect educational systems.

I'm not going to argue that adults aren't the problem, but it's not just those adults with ridiculous expectations or those "exploiting" education for profit or political gain. Sometimes it's those adults with the best of intentions, as well. And somehow, life goes on and achievements continue.

@John Wilson -- IF the tests for the kindergartners were designed intelligently, to identify those children who might have more trouble processing visual symbols, which is crucial to reading, and then given more help in this area, the testing might actually be useful. But after watching the mess that increased testing at all stages has given us, I have no faith in that.

The US pays a lot for education, with mediocre results. Oddly enough, that mirrors our healthcare system -- lots of money, with us lagging behind the rest of the developed nations.

I think the problem is that neither education or healthcare can be run on a business model, and limited minds like Scott Walkers cannot see that.

Craig -

The above post was in reply to your last...

"Hey John I am with you on waste, costs, etc.
What is wrong with trying some new ideas though?
Obviously what we have been doing isn't working very well."

I attempted to send this under my original post (5) times - the Patch showed that it went through, however, it never appeared on the page; I emailed them, Jeff is sleeping or too busy - I hope this adequately answers your comments...

I think the problem is that neither education or healthcare can be run on a business model, and limited minds like Scott Walkers cannot see that.

*************

You honestly think our public education system is running on a business model? I don't know what you're basing that on. No business run as our public education system does would still be around.

Scott Walker's "limited mind" has only been influencing schools in this state for about a year and a half. The problems we've been experiencing go back much further than that, through administrations that were very amenable to virtually anything the educational community desired. Try again.

Mitchell Molbeck -

Currently, we are about 10 years ahead of China, so there is no need to keep up with China.

Our goal is and always should be, to be the greatest nation on the face of the planet.

That means getting our people employed, educated for the jobs that are begging for people NOW - not the jobs of yesterday - continuing education, particularily in the areas of Science and Math, getting our national fiscal house in order and getting our deficit under control.

Frankly, until the D’s & R’s learn to put America FIRST, over political party and keeping their job, we are not going to make much progress. Finally, and neither of the presidential candidates will tell you this, the resolution of our current problems is going to bring a great deal of sacrifice and pain among all socio-economic groups and the hardest hit is going to be the poor, middleclass and elderly Americans…

Interesting, John. I think you just posted a comment that I can agree with...