When it comes to the deficit, the GOP can truly say, "We Built It.'

Those millions of additional jobs and the tax revenue they would have generated would have sure helped reduce it, except we have a right wing party that thinks unreal ideology and getting the black man out of the white house justifies blocking real world programs.

"Are you better off now then four trillion dollars ago?"

Than, not then...sorry, pet peeve. The only thing more peevish to me is the improper use of your and you're. Please don't be offended when I point out grammatical failure, it's me not you.

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

@Schmitzy -

What millions of jobs? And how exactly would those jobs help reduce the deficit? Do you honestly believe that government jobs bring in more in revenue than they cost the taxpayers?

Perhaps it's this line of rationale that prevents Keith from being able to pay his debts!

The question itself is ridiculous, as if Obama created the deficit. Anyone who tries to use this manipulative, dishonest meme as an honest measurement of the Obama administration loses a lot of respect points.

@Bren -

Are you denying the objective fact that $6T was added to the federal debt thus far under Obama alone?

Keith, still with the spin. While you didn't actually say the Democrats had nothing to do with the debt, you implied very strongly it was all Republican.

Bren, The Obama Administration contributed 6 out of the 16 Trillion of that debt. That's 37.5%

Joey, no problem. We all have little foibles. Mine is not letting Keith, Bren Lyle and others get away with misinformation, terrible factual spins and flat out lies.

Hoffa, to expand on your point, the worst part of the job creation is the waste of money. If we accept that Barack Hussein Obama's ARRA funds created 4.5 million jobs, that comes at a cost of almost $110,000 per job!

Looks like James Hoffa is spinning his yarn again. Here there dear hofas the spinning of $6 trillion can be summed up as such;
Not so fast!
As usual the Republicans are distorting the facts and not doing their homework. As they all say, the devil is in the details. Let’s take a look at the facts.
Of the nearly $16 trillion debt figure they are so proud to display, $12 trillion was incurred by the Reagan/Bush and the Bush/Cheney terms through September 2010. Add to that the interest on that debt for one year plus the Bush cuts for the time Obama has been in office, and you will come up with about $15 trillion. This is the real number the Republicans have added to the debt over the last 30 years. That leaves Obama with a net add of $1.3 trillion over the past 3½ years. Not bad when one is trying to get us out of the worst recession in 80 years.
In closing, let us never forget what Vice President Cheney told his then- Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, “You know Paul, Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.”
Tell that to hofa and your jimmy for me would you dear James hofa....

Bernie, where did you come up with the Republican's being responsible for 12 TRILLION of our debt? First, When Barack Hussein Obama took office, the debt was at $10.02 TRILLION ( http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm ). As of today the debt is at $16.05 TRILLION ( http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ). Pull out your calculator and you will find that debt rose under Barack Hussein Obama by $6.03 TRILLION or 60%!

Now to be fair, Barack Hussein Obama did not do this on his own. Many in his own party and some current Republican's are enabling him to keep up the elaborate spending in the name of economic stimulation. However, spending like this for the past four years has done NOTHING good for our economy, and in fact just adds to our debt obligation even further. Picture trying to appear well off by maxing out all your credit cards. When they come due you still have no money, and you have even few options open to you.

The worst thing with Barack Hussein Obama and the debt is that he shows no signs of changing our credit spending as we continue this downward debt spiral!

good point. we the people of suburban areas have no idea of what war and poverty is like. what more do you want folks ? the political system has made it easy to live in comfort. iphones, drugs and entertainment are affordable for those who so choose.

We all know 'it could have been worse'.
Put a Teaparty ideologue in office and no more subsidies for big corporations. Then we can talk!
I'd like to see a better informed electorate in my Wauwatosa, where we used to dream BIG.

Who supports small business now? Who buys from these small businesses? I see more strangers than friends in my home town.

maybe the questions should be how much of the issues of the last 4 years were initiated by the actions of the previous 8? Not a Republican or Democrat but the country was spiralling downward prior to 2008. Even if McCain had won in 2008 the problems would have been the same and if he had won then, do you think he woud have improved things faster or slower than Obama? My guess is it would generally be about the same and I would want to keep that administration in place just like I want to keep Obama's in place today. Four years is simply not enough time to repair the damage that was inherited. Add those issues to trying to keep the country moving forward and it's one heck of a job. So even if it was McCain and not Obama, I'd probably be looking to give McCain another four years. Eight years allows more to be accomplished than 4 and in this case, the deck was stacked against whomever could have won in 2008.

Anti-Alinsky - you wrote "Bernie, where did you come up with the Republican's being responsible for 12 TRILLION of our debt? First, When Barack Hussein Obama took office, the debt was at $10.02 TRILLION ( http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm ). As of today the debt is at $16.05 TRILLION ( http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ). Pull out your calculator and you will find that debt rose under Barack Hussein Obama by $6.03 TRILLION or 60%!"

I do believe that the budget was balanced before Bush came in for his 8 years. So using your info, his administration is responsible for $10.2 Trillion. Obama added 6.02 trillion - he still has 4 trillion to go before he gets to the levels of the Bush administration. If you wan to say Obama increased debt by 60% then you have to say Bush increased it by 100%. Am I wrong?

@WIPLAYER -

You really need to learn more about the national debt:

When Carter left office the national debt stood at $909B.

Reagan added $1.692T over 8 years. Reagan also admitted that the accumulation of debt was the greatest failure/regret of his Presidency.

When H.W. Bush took office, the national debt stood at $2.601T. Bush Sr. added $1.4T over 4 years.

When Clinton took office, the national debt stood at $4.001T. Clinton added $1.726T over 8 years.

When W. Bush took office, the national debt stood at $5.727T. Bush Jr. added $4.899T over 8 years.

When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626T. Today, the national debt stands at $16.016T. Thus far, Obama has added $5.39T.

Total GOP debt since Carter: $7.991T over 20 years.
Total Dem debt since Carter: $7.116T over 11.5 years.

Thus, if you accurately and fairly asses based on time frame, you'll clearly see that while both parties have been massive spenders over the last 32 years, the Dems are definitely outspending the GOP by a margin of almost 2:1.

@WIPLAYER wrote: " If you wan to say Obama increased debt by 60% then you have to say Bush increased it by 100%. Am I wrong?"

As explained by Hoffa above, yes, you are wrong!

BTW, Schmitzy
Where's Hoffa's 50?

………………………………...Start ……..End …….Increase…Increase …House.
……Party/ Term …………….. GDP……..GDP…….Billons…GDP………Senate.

George H. W. Bush R 1989–1993..53.1%…66.1%……+1,483.…+13.0%…….DD… Clinton.
Bill Clinton D 1993–1997.……66.1% ……65.4%………+1,018.….-0.7%…….103rd. D, 104th R 103rd D, 104th R Clinton2
Bill Clinton D 1997–2001.………..65.4%…..56.4%………+401.……-9.0%……R R. Bush GW1.
George W. Bush R 2001–2005.……56.4%…..63.5%…….+2,135.…..+7.1%…….R… 107th Split, 108 R Bush GW2.
George W. Bush R 2005–2009.…….63.5%…..84.2%……..+3,971.…..+20.7%..109th. R, 110th D 109th R, 110th ….D Obama1.
Barack Obama D 2009 -……………84.2%……93.2%…..+1,653.……..+9.0...111th D,

Worked harder? When? You are on this blog most of the day. Of course how would we know since you hide behind a screen identify.

@Nutari: I am much worse off...just remember, you are not allowed to say to you "worked harder" - remember the words of the chosen one: "You didn't build that." and his other famous line: :"The buck stops with you."...rather than "Me" as when Truman said it. How much can you know about American political history if you cannot get that right. Next thing you know, he will be bowing to world leaders and saying, "Speak softly and do not carry a stick - apologize" - oh wait, he has already done that. If the big "O" is reelected, the country as you know it is gone in 18mo and so is the Blind Sheik...right back to Egypt.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/09/20/will-president-obama-give-up-the-blind-sheik-some-say-its-possible/

Keith hits the keyboard running

...Ad hominem attacks...argumentative...callous...demeaning...just the usual insipid rants from Keith.

Not by paying for it, I'm sure.

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

@Mike -

Schmitzy scams free wi-fi from coffee shops in Shorewood.

Would you kindly delineate some of these handicaps that were imposed on you after January 2009?

You point out an accurate picture of life in the Great Recession, Patriot. However, how much of the price increases are due to Wall Street? And annual health insurance increases have been double-digit increases for me as long as I can remember, with diminishing benefits. Obama's not bankrupting this country, and he certainly didn't create the recession. Research, then lay the blame where it properly belongs.

Patriot
Bernie replies.
Fuel cost is twice as high. What a bunch of crock. Bush came to office fuel was at $1,75 per gallon oil was at $16 per barrel. Invades Iraq and fuel went to $4.00 per gallon and $145.00 per barrel of oil. In Nov. 2008 releases the ations oil emergency oil reservess. Brought prices down artifically for a short period of time but soon to go back up. Strange he would release our emergency oil supplies AFTER the elections. Gee I wonder? Is your fuel prices gone up and republicans refuse t let the oil emergency reserves to be used. DUH Geee I wonder why??

Bernie, you want to see gas prices come down? Three words for you, DRILL BABY DRILL! Something Barack Hussein Obama has yet to learn to say. We have more oil within our borders than most of the mideast. We have the technology and ability to extract it. The only thing holding us back are Liberals like you and Barack Hussein Obama that for some odd reason wants to see us suffer for lack of oil.

And let's not forget the Keystone pipeline!

Seriously...the Chosen one had 2008 to 2010 - Dems in control of both houses - he could have passed anything he wanted. Of course, he would have had to come in off the golf course long enough to govern, and....gasp....push to pass a budget. We are lagging behind because you lead from the top...and we have no leadership.. Pure and simple.

Unions_NO, that's not correct. The Democratic super-majority lasted about 6 months in total. Remember the late seating of Al Franken in the Senate, and the death of Ted Kennedy and subsequent election of a Republican.

Concerning the golf course, by September 11, 2001, George W. Bush had taken more vacation time than any previous modern-era president, and that included two-term presidents.

Research. The facts are out there for you.

Dear Bren even suggesting that union do some research has had me laughing so much I just am able to get this out. You do know union is a right wing narcissist. No comprehension of what research means. LOLOLOLOLOL

I'm sure you're right. He's probably the biggest drawing rock star the BMO Harris stage has featured so far (The crowd for EC last weekend was paltry, but we had great seats). It was certainly the appropriate venue. Did you buy a t-shirt? I took a pass on that myself last week. Just thought I'd throw that in, since you didn't think the question that serves as the headline for this article was necessarily the right one.

Oh whoopie gee. So much to get cynical over. Nothing makes me happier than to see you happy. Sure beats thinking and reacting to facts.

You mean engage in the same pointless talking point battles over and over? Yes, it's more entertaining to me to note that a long winded gush-a-logue about a rockstar appearance probably makes more sense in one of the other articles here devoted to that topic than it is to hyperventilate over the same thing repeatedly.

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

Bob McBride
9:04 am on Sunday, September 23, 2012
You mean engage in the same pointless talking point battles over and over? Yes, it's more entertaining to me to note that a long winded gush-a-logue about a rockstar appearance probably makes more sense in one of the other articles here devoted to that topic than it is to hyperventilate over the same thing repeatedly.

Bernie replies;
Are you going out for comedian of the year? Hyperventilating? Is that what you do? “AND” yet here you remain and come back day after day. Just can’t get enough of it can you? Remember admitting you have a problem is the first step…

Well said GardenLady.

Yes, Bernie, I do come back for the entertainment. Guys like Keith are very entertaining. He's perfect in that regard in that i never have to slog through endless miles of drivel to get to the entertaining parts.

What's your excuse?

Keith...I think you mean "ABJECT Failure...not "object" - and that is what he is...what are you smoking. Read something besides a talking point...like the truth:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/under-obama-30-worst-months-employment-past-25-years_645771.html
,,,and a walk down memory lane:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/flashback-obama-scoffed-at-bush-jobs-report-showing-gain-of-300k-jobs/

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

And what 28,000 jobs were 'saved' in Wisconsin thanks to Obama? That auto bailout cost us taxpayers over $50B. When Carter bailed out Chrysler under Iacocca back in '79, it didn't cost the taxpayers a dime, in fact we actually made a little money off that deal! And yet, you act as if Obama did something great and wonderful.

You're clueless, and you still owe Hoffa fifty ($50)!

This is one small example of how Obama will seek to continue to move us forward, up and out of the chaos of the republicans mandates.
Fiscal Year{ FY } in politics is from October to September. Bush presented Obama with a 9% constricting economy. Bush received a 5.6 Trillion SURPLUS to budget debt from Clinton. So lets take that and subtract what Bush debts were, that he handed over to Obama. Surplus of $5.6 Trillion plus all debts incurred since October 2008 to January 2009 and we come with a 5.6% reduction in debt to GDP. In 3.3 years Obama is at 15.1% to debt of GDP, from a 20.7% increase to debt by Bush and going rapidly down into the abyss.

Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets lost of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.

Here in is small sampling of what Obama has achieved. Notice I did not include; Osama Bin Laden, Libya, Iraq, Drawdown, Nobel Prize and so on.
Obama has and is moving us forward at an accelerating rate. Observe the markets of Sept.6 2012.
Observe who rebuilt the infrastructure to hold Bankers to strict derivatives regulations. Banker’s lobbied with over $200 million! to stop the Obama, Elizabeth Warren and Frank Dodds regulations from being implemented. Republicans are still seeking to deregulate them. Expose what their goals are and its NOT for our Main Street USA. { Derivative trading prime suspect for the Great Recession}
Elizabeth goes nose to nose , right in the face, with Wall Streets tycoons. Our lady tiger that has the Tycoons appreciate fear. She is not a BROWN nosing follower of the herded sheep.
2016 she will be a contender for president, my predication. Observe her speech at the convention http://youtu.be/zNcbg1EU_bI U-tube speech.

Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/
Latest up date to Markets; The Fed pledged Thursday to buy $40 billion in mortgage-backed bonds every month from large banks and other dealers in an effort to help free up capital and spur lending. The move is also expected to help push down mortgage rates, already near record lows, to further stimulate the housing market. The central bank said it would continue buying until the unemployment rate, which stood at 8.1 percent in August, decreases significantly.
Wall Street continued to cheer the news. The Dow Jones Industrial Average, which surged more than 206 points after the Fed announcement Thursday -- climbed another 53 points Friday to 13,593, its highest closing since December 2007. Global markets also reacted positively: the Hang Seng index in Hong Kong surged 2.9 percent, the Japanese Nikkei 225 index shot up 1.8 percent, and the British FTSE 100 rose more than 1.6 percent.

Schmitze , pay Jimbo his $50 so he can run out and buy some CRACK the guys really hirting.

@Bucky -

Crack, eh? Maybe for your mother while she was pregnant with you, but not for Hoffa - he's straight edge all the way!

union needs to put away his comic books and tabolid links. Bus lost 4.43 million jobs in his last year in office. Obama has 4.4 million jobs created after the 9% contraction rate to our Nations finincial security and GOING DOWN Ha, ha union give up comic books, LOL...

Here are the facts AGAIN Bernie:
( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf )

YEAR ------ TOTAL SPENT ---% INCREASE
----------------(in millions)
2008 ..........2,982,544 .............9.30% (last year of Bush)
2009 ..........3,517,677 ...........17.94% (transition budget with TARP)
2010 ..........3,456,213 ............-1.75% (first Obama budget)
(still higher than 2008 by 15.88%)
2011 ..........3,603,061 .............4.25%
2012 ..........3,795,547 .............5.34% (estimate)
and the politifact followups:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/25/lots-heat-and-some-light-obamas-spending/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-2/2012/05/30/gJQA3V4d2U_blog.html

and a few other sources:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/24/Politifact-Obama-Not-a-Big-Spender

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-3/2012/06/05/gJQAY9YhGV_blog.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/05/actually-the-obama-spending-binge-really-did-happen/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450910257188398.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

So how do you go from 2.982 TRILLION to 3.795 TRILLION (a 27% increase in four years) and still have "the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years"?!?!?!?!?!

And Bernie, you still make absolutely no sense with your
Simple facts from http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
US Debt in FYE 2000 - 5.67 TRILLION (no Surplus to budget crap, just debt!)
US Debt in FYE 2008 - 10.02 TRILLION (increase of 4.35 TRILLION in EIGHT years with a WAR going full swing)
US Debt Today - 16.05 TRILLION (increase of 6.35 TRILLION in FOUR years)

See, nice simple explanation, factual with source cited!

BTW Schmitzy -
Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

@ The Anti-Alinsky
Bernie Replies;
Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/
You will be required to read a book or 2 or 3o or 4 ; Oh I forgot Anti says books are not a source of information!.
Plutocracy is in their final analyst, bottom-line. Stuff like that. Supports the welfare of the 1% by reducing Regulations, laws, government, and so on. Precisely what criminals minds would seek, to advance their corruptions legally. Epso facto increasing inequality manifesting in ratio to deregulations. Consider this small story. Government wants to deregulate highways and by-ways. Removes all signs. Danger, curve, stop, lane markers, and so on and so on. How soon do you think a collapse will occur. Not apply that to the deregulation of Banks and our financial infrastructures. Viola! Great Depression 1929 . Great Recession 2008 .
Republicans are still seeking to remove all our signs of a civilized intelligent society. Republicans’ bible may be found written by Prince Peter Kropotkin [1842-1921] published 1896; “Anarchism; Its Philosophies’ and Ideals”
Now that elitist hold most of the chips and power. Why Not? Examine Joseph Proudhon [1809-65] “What Is Property” … Theft! VIVA LE ANARCHIST! Read those two books and you will be convinced that the republicans are your saviors.

Bernie, I never said books were not a legitimate source...I said you need to CITE your source.

Your rear end, where you seem to be pulling most of your facts from, is NOT a legitimate source!

BTW Schmitzy -
Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

@Menoparent -

Hmmm.. compared to four years ago, here are the objective FACTS:

Less people are working, earning less money, prices of necessaries have risen exponentially, and we're $6T deeper in the hole on the federal level.

And you honestly think that the country as a whole is better off???

What country do you live in? You do realize that only American citizens may vote in the election, right?

Obama didn't create the recession and I think it would be a really bad idea to hand the economy back over to the folks who were a big part of doing so. Romney plans to bring in dozens of Bush 43-era "advisers" and there's no guarantee that he won't change his mind again and go with the Ryan budget plan, decried by American Catholic bishops as inhumane. No thank you.

It was NOT Bush who started the economy crumbling. It was Clinton and his cronies (Rubin, Summers, Geitner...). It was these same cronies that Obama chose for his cabinet and as advisers. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/etc/synopsis.html

@Bren -

1) Greedy American consumerism caused the recession. People like Bren, who bought cars from companies that support paying workers less so that profit margins can be higher for the corporations and shareholders.

2) Romney's 57 point plan, as set forth on his campaign website, does not reflect Bush era policy positions.

3) Ryan's budget is a conversation starter - a point from which negotiations can begin, as Ryan himself has stated on many occasions. Also, Ryan has offered numerous versions of his budget plan to date, in trying to work across the partisan aisle. Where's the Democrats' budget? The progressive caucus budget wasn't able to garner majority support within the Democratic Party, yet alone being able to reach out across the partisan aisle. And Obama's proposed budget didn't even get a single vote from a member of his own Party! After that, the Democrats just plain gave up worrying about a budget. Meanwhile, the GOP has been proposing and and the House has been passing budget proposal after budget proposal, from Ryan's to the Rand Paul/DeMint/Lee budget, etc.

The problem is with your beloved Democrats in Congress and the failure of a leader of a President that you support.

ROMNEY/RYAN 2012!!!

@ mau
12:30 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
It was NOT Bush who started the economy crumbling. It was Clinton and his cronies (Rubin, Summers, Geitner...). It was these same cronies that Obama chose for his cabinet and as advisers.
Bernie replies.
Clinton handed over a $5.6 trillion SURPLUS to Budget reduction to debt per YEAR!
Where does Mau- Mau work? Must be projectionist down at the movie house. LOL If Bush would have followed the map that Clinton GAVE him and listened to Tip O’niel and Greenspan, we would never had gone to this hole of the republicans brilliant leadership. Nope we would now would have been in SURPLUS with no debt to GDP. ZERO.. Nope republicans throw the map aside and listened to no one and promptly ran us into the ditch just before going over the cliff… Yeah Mau get back to the movie house. You have no ability to face reality.

Mitt Romney’s tax plan would provide large tax cuts to wealthy Americans and hike taxes on middle- and low-income households, according to an analysis by The Brookings Institution .
The report published Wednesday estimated households with incomes over $1 million would receive average tax cuts of $87,117 under Romney’s plan, while those earning $200,000 or less would pay higher taxes.
The analysis was conducted by three Brookings economists, including William G. Gale, an economic adviser to President George H. W. Bush, and Adam Looney, who served in Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers.
As for Ryan's proposed budget would cripple the economy. He'd slash spending deeply, which would not only slow job growth, but shock the economy and cost 1 million of us our jobs in 2013 alone and kill more than 4 million jobs by the end of 2014. "Ryan's Budget, Robin Hood in reverse," Economic Policy Institute
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=278939&id=48818-18896842-LWo0J9x&t=4
ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE! Just a tad more reliable than the Hoffa’s’ Hoffa lies.

James R Hoffa
12:51 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
@Bren -
1) Greedy American consumerism caused the recession. People like Bren, who bought cars from companies that support paying workers less so that profit margins can be higher for the corporations and shareholders.

Bernie replies;
“OF COURSE” it’s the 47% that failed us. Janitors, Ma and Pa, Veterans, Brick Layers, Restaurant staffs, Yup, Yup its their greedy consumption that nearly that nearly drove us over the cliff.. Sure, sure, sure Hoffa. Seriously you are no economic or even close to it. Just what did you take up in your education? Basket weaving?

Bernie, what is this "$5.6 trillion SURPLUS to Budget reduction to debt per YEAR! " crap. US Debt was at 5.6 TRILLION when Bush 43 took over the White House period. No convoluted "SURPLUS to Budget reduction" blah blah blah. Simple forward DEBT! Debt has gone up 6.35 TRILLION under FOUR years of Barack Hussein Obama.

Those are FACTS. Not spin... FACTS!

Again, Mr. Hoffa. I didn't "buy" the car. It was provided to me in partial payment for contract work!!!!

Mike - like when they burn the Obama posters? Sure fooled me.

They were chanting Osama, not Obama.

Mike ... Is it MikeOsama ?

Mickey, Greg are out to strawberry fields again with their favorite Hippie. Osama in less than 2 years without the dungeons of torture of our bushwhacker’s ideologies. Libya in less than year with no boots on the ground, no American lives lost and still obtains objective. Securing the peace and freedom for these dolts to go dancing through the tulips..
“AND” just like SPOILED kiddies its not enough. Give me, give me. Get off your butts and go out and see what you can do for someone else for no reason at all. Try it think you can handle that? No thinking required. “OR” its just a ME, ME thingy with you dolts.

Oh heck - Bernard found his keyboard.

Bernard - okay, let's check this out.

"Osama in less than 2 years" - from our Nobel Peace Prize winning President? He is a warmonger?

"Libya in less than year with no boots on the ground, no American lives lost..." Um, where the hell have you been the last two weeks? Looking for your keyboard? BTW, Obama did not use "boots" on the ground to protect our Ambassador. Obama has blood on his hands!

What a dolt.

Guess you missed my sarcasm.

Romney = smaller govt and free markets - no one is too big to fail
Obama = socialist, larger govt nanny state - we are all taxed for another bankrupt type Solyndra bail out...until they run out of our money again...QE3...Fed buying our debt because China won't etc...
Sounds like an easy choice to me, and I am no fan of the GOP, lg govt machine.

Union is having a problem with his ability to comprehend. Wants smaller government and less laws/regulations. Hmmm Sure sounds exactly what a criminal dreams of.
Are we smarter than the Baboons?
Republicans advocate smaller government and laissez-faire ideologies. Strategy of the most primitive life forms disagree!
From the viruses through bacteria’s and on to the vegetative and animal kingdom, unification of an organized society is demonstrated. Centralized organization to enhance their security as well as empowering them to succeed in their environment is detrimental to their survival.
Sovereignties of the world are demonstrating that strategy. Organizing and reorganizing to compete with the surrounding nations. Observe the reorganizing of orthodox communism to compete on the Liberal International Free Trade Markets. Democratic principles are required that were once their nemesis. Evolving to adapt for their survival as a culture and a nation.
Reduction of that organizing ideology serves to regress the survival mode of any organism on this planet. Greater organized unification of their society enhances their security and empowers them to adapt to their environment.
Republicans are the antithesis to evolution.

They never had any core values.

Your on the right track investments are the way to go lets invest in a new president!!

Tommy boy must have missed this.
Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets lost of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Yes! Including any rolling 17 month period during the Great Depression.
Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.

@Bernie: "Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. "

Beneficial?!?!?!? Creating jobs at a cost of $110,000 each is NOT beneficial!!!!

BTW Schmitzy,
Where is Hoffa's $50?

Thanks Anti-Alinsky ;-)

Ronny and Tommy must be related. Reading apprehinision kind of missing with them. Keep saying same thing with different words with no resolotutions.
Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets lost of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Yes! Including any rolling 17 month period during the Great Depression.
Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.

Yeah Michael we get it. "Some People Say" That aside lets look at those that actually succeded in getting our nation out of this hole republicans have shoved in.Disagree. Observe how F. D.R. with the genius of Marriner Eccles focused on strengthening the middle class. Engine to our financial establishment is sustained with a flow of liquidity. Middle class are the consumers that produce liquidity via their rapid expenditures for consumption of products produced. Preventing that, by hording the wealth to a few, decimates the consumers for production of products and its consumption. Eliminate consumer no products sold. Business fail . Game over? Example;… 5 people playing poker. Game progresses and the pot goes to 2 winners. They play as long as the other 3 have credit. When that is gone, game over.
Note; at that time of F.D.R. the 1% of the population held 43% of the nations wealth. Presently 1.2% hold 40% of the wealth. Middle class lost a big hand. Game nearly over. Strengthen the middle class by infusing health and prosperity becomes the responsibility of the government. Incorrect polices that stimulate the 1.2% will hasten the termination of the game. It is now time to stimulate the middle class to increase liquidity. “if” you wish to keep the game going.

@Bernard Forand The American people's income has been falling in the last several years. Combine this with QE!, QE2 and now QE3, the value of the money in people's wallets has been declining. This is a double wammy! Yes, America is based on consumer demand, but these trends portend a disastrous result!

Michael McClusky
12:13 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
@Bernard Forand The American people's income has been falling in the last several years. Combine this with QE!, QE2 and now QE3, the value of the money in people's wallets has been declining. This is a double wammy! Yes, America is based on consumer demand, but these trends portend a disastrous result!

Bernie replies;
Your out of context. Obama has stopped the spiraling down into absolute chaos. “IF” you want to converse on the inequality of our nation and its growing gap? Then we need to go back a few years. Examine the forces that produced this inequality. Here we get into how governments and owners of corporations interact. Then we will need to see who supports these forces that increase inequality. Example; Welfare to the cronyism of our nation. 2010 Top ten oil companies paid zero taxes, received $Multimillions in tax refunds for each. DEMAND $Multibillions in welfare payments to their record profiting companies. Hostage/Ransom ,remember, “OR” they will SHUTDOWN our Main Street USA. That’s only one of hundreds of how reverse welfare works. Guess who owns those companies? Maybe we should give them a bigger tax break…GIVE me a break!

@Bernard Forand If you are so focused on income inequality, then here is my take: in 1991 companies began to give raises to their employees below the annual inflation rate. Over the years this caught up to the employees, who are the vast majority of the consumers. Many people began to spend more than they made in order to maintain their lifestyle. This couldn't last forever. Combine these factors with the advent of globalization, then you begin to see a downward spiral in the standard of living of many Americans. Add the fact that the Federal Reserve has kept devaluing the dollar in order to bolster prices artificially, then there is no wonder that things are pretty bad.
You question the affect that the Federal Reserve has on our economy. Supply and demand should be the order of the day. I contend that without government interference prices of goods and serviices would actually be cheaper than they currently are. The Fed is benefitting Wall Street, not Main Street.

@ Michael McClusky

Several factors contributed to the erosion of the middle class. Ignoring the elephant in the room [deregulation derivatives] and examine a just a couple of micro components.
Unsecured credit. Corporations rather than returning the liquidity back to the laborers via raises, bonuses, benefits, and so on. They decided to lend it back to the laborers with easy credit and ever growing interest rates and hidden charges. Garnishing $Trillions from the middle class. Banks picked up on that as well. Overdraft abusive charges to name just some how the debt increased to the consumer rather than their wages and benefits. Thus from 1970 to 2010 middle class wages remained stagnate.
Three decades of low wages, to the 90%, with a growth of 15%. Earnings increase to the 1% have been cruising at 150% increases as to the 0.1% are racing at 300% Greater acceleration of wealth accumulation has affected the wealth at the bottom.
Prior to 2007 the 1% enjoyed accumulating 57% of the nations wealth. Producing an increase in capital income after 1979 some 7/8 while those in the 95% received less than 3% of the increment.
Now keep in mind as middle class remained stagnate in their income value inflation kept growing at say 3% per year. After three decades of stagnation value to the middle class it does not take a lot of math to figure how poverty would increase as measure of inequality.

@Bernard Forand I have said many times that the greatest threat to this country is limitless greed. The 'I got mine, the hell with everyone else' mentality is the true cause of erosion in our society. It is not a political problem, but a moral one. How much money does a person need to survive? I mean, a billionaire is theoretically unhappy unless he has more billions. Corporate America is so obsessed with continual immediate gratification that they cannot see the proverbial balloon popping any time soon. We are headed for a real cataclysm when demand dries up.

@ Daniel S. Your best bet is with a strong democrat congress and Obama.
Study conducted on 80 years. Democrats’ run Bull and Republicans run Bear. Bulls you bet to win to win. Bears you bet lose to win.

Santa Clara and Valkanov attribute the difference in returns to the stock markets being systematically and positively surprised to discover that democratic polices in a 80 year time frame of quantifiable data, are the best economic stewards for the nation. Differences are substantial.
Democrats had a respectable average return of 9.6% as when compared to republicans 0.58% average returns. If an employee’s 401[K] plan was fully invested in stocks at a value of $100,000, at the beginning of the employee’s 40 years of labor, apply this to both parties for returns.
Republicans Nest egg would have accumulated $224,375.
Democrates Nest Egg would have accumulated $ 3,912,210.
Now at $5,000, initial nest egg investment.
Republicans Nest Egg would have accumulated $126,027.
Democrats Nest Egg would have accumulated $1,985,526.
‘The Presidential puzzle; Political Cycles and the stock market” Accessed December 14 2011, the journal of finance, Vol.LVIII, no.5October 2003
In addition;http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/ Pulitzer Prize Awarded site

@Daniel S. I have read that the Federal Reserve has changed the formula in which they calculate the inflation rate. They always report that the rate is at or below 2%. There are many out there who dispute this conclusion. General Mills, for example, annouced last year that its material costs went up 11%. That company openly wondered how prices are only rising at 2%. We don't trust the Labor Department's unemployment reports, and we certainly shouldn't believe the Federal Reserve either.

@Michael McClusky -

The Obama administration changed the way in which the BLS computes the labor numbers back in 2010.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-12-28-1Ajobless28_ST_N.htm

He was trying to make his self declared 'summer of recovery' look better than it actually was. And even under the new standards of computing the numbers, it still didn't get the unemployment number below 8% as Obama had promised!

And this is the guy that promised to be the most open, honest, and transparent administration in our nation's history! Why doesn't anyone call him out on it???

The media in this country has become such a joke!!!

Michael McClusky
12:04 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
@Daniel S. I have read that the Federal Reserve has changed the formula in which they calculate the inflation rate. They always report that the rate is at or below 2%. There are many out there who dispute this conclusion. General Mills, for example, annouced last year that its material costs went up 11%. That company openly wondered how prices are only rising at 2%. We don't trust the Labor Department's unemployment reports, and we certainly shouldn't believe the Federal Reserve either.

Bernie replies; Again out of context. General Mill is one with specific resources which may or may not be contributors to the national standers that measure inflation. When inflation hits you will Know it. Have been thru enough of those. Watch your food cost on each item and see which items are first to move. Manufacturing on various items not just one and observe which are going up and which are going down. Apparel same thing. Notice as you do this how many external factors affect rise and fall in prices. Over a few months is micro as to yearly gross adjustments. Much, much more. If you are truly interested seek out some books on the subject. Lyle could suggest some for you.

@ James R Hoffa
12:39 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
@Michael McClusky -
The Obama administration changed the way in which the BLS computes the labor numbers back in 2010.

Bernie replies;
How labor statistics to unemployment has always been a political football. Notice how bush unemployment never showed the 4.43 million job losses in his last year accurately. Same with his debt incurred to GDP. Does not take in the monies he borrowed from China and or our S.S.. These will be constantly changing by definition. A tweak here or there but in general a measuring device to give some perspective to the populace.
Now how about more drastic change in say evaluating Debt To GDP? Hmmm. How about we also include debt incurred due to environmental damage, pollution and nations health. Guess who would be screaming then? Corporations! Imagine that, they could be held accountable for their damage to the environment, that the populace could observe as well as to their health. LOL would that be a Joke on them right? “OR” how about real time measurement of the inequality gap between the classes. Now do ya think that would go over well. Lets see what is what. Let the herd examine it day to day as they are being milked… LOL let the fun begin.

Here are the facts AGAIN Bernie:
( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf )

YEAR ------ TOTAL SPENT ---% INCREASE
----------------(in millions)
2008 ..........2,982,544 .............9.30% (last year of Bush)
2009 ..........3,517,677 ...........17.94% (transition budget with TARP)
2010 ..........3,456,213 ............-1.75% (first Obama budget)
(still higher than 2008 by 15.88%)
2011 ..........3,603,061 .............4.25%
2012 ..........3,795,547 .............5.34% (estimate)
and the politifact followups:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/25/lots-heat-and-some-light-obamas-spending/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-2/2012/05/30/gJQA3V4d2U_blog.html

and a few other sources:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/24/Politifact-Obama-Not-a-Big-Spender

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-3/2012/06/05/gJQAY9YhGV_blog.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/05/actually-the-obama-spending-binge-really-did-happen/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450910257188398.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

So how do you go from 2.982 TRILLION to 3.795 TRILLION (a 27% increase in four years) and still have "the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years"?!?!?!?!?!

The Anti-Alinsky
5:22 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
Bernie Replies;
Here will try one more time to explain those figures you keep pasting. Consider a vehicle drives by at 60 MPH and returns and drives by at 60MPH and then again returns and drives by at 60MPH. What is the increase? A] 180 B] 60 C] 0 if you get this right then we can move on to some more complicated scenarios. Until then.
Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/ Pulitzer Warded Site. Observe yours are from blogs??? Tabloid articles.
What are your biases trying to support? A “Party First” that promotes Anarchist ideologies to establish plutocracy, aristocrat, hierology, emperors,etc. You do realize all you will get out of that is serfdom. No, that does not mean surfing. You and your entire family will work from sun up to sun down still not provide enough wealth to survive on. NO surfing!
Simple example. Notice Perry [Gov. Texas] pressed for immigration laws. Finally he implements some. However an exemption clause allows domestic illegal immigrants. [Serfdom] Republicans do not want to stop illegal immigration. That they are illegal gives them leverage to keep them in poverty and exemplifies to our citizens what is expected of them. Less wages and benefits as Bill would say http://youtu.be/fqPRWWu47mg

Gee Bernie, what seems to happen under Democrats???

Massive inflation, .com bubble bursts, and Massive debt accumulation.

It's all on paper. Bull markets mean nothing until you cash your chips in!!!

Babbling Bernie wrote:
"Bernie Replies;
Here will try one more time to explain those figures you keep pasting. Consider a vehicle drives by at 60 MPH and returns and drives by at 60MPH and then again returns and drives by at 60MPH. What is the increase? A] 180 B] 60 C] 0 if you get this right then we can move on to some more complicated scenarios. Until then..."

Bernie, what are you talking about? Stop trying to use irrelevant and out of context analogies. We aren't on a highway, we are talking about the out of control federal budget. The numbers posted aren't static. Since Barack Hussein Obama took office, spending went from 2.982 TRILLION in 2008 to 3.795 TRILLION in 2012, a 27% increase in four years!

And I have yet to see one legitimate reference (other than your politifact post you are in love with, and I have proven wrong time and again).

Obama advised that I buy GM;I'm bankrupt :-(
-or-
Obama advised that I buy Apple; 5 1/2 times my money in four years;I'm rich ;-)

Sure Jay, invest in the American people or in supporting FoxConn, the Taiwanese company that builds iPhones and iPads. The nice factories where workers must sleep in dorms, where shifts are 24+ hours long, and nets are installed around the buildings to catch suicidal workers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2085005/300-Foxcon-staff-Xbox-360-plant-China-threaten-mass-suicide-pay.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/technology/foxconn-said-to-use-forced-student-labor-to-make-iphones.html?_r=3&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

I'm glad you're Apple investments are working well for you. What are a few suicides as long as you have a few extra bucks in your wallet, eh?

@Randy1949 -

Offset your personal gains with your share of $6T in new federal debt and then get back to us.

@Bren -

You have a lot of room to talk, Ms. I own a car from a company that supports paying workers less so that profit margins for the corporation and shareholders can be higher!

Hypocrite!

Whew! Jay and the Hoffas' are really had a bit too much of that TEA. They are completly intoxicated. Jays' hearing voices that tells him how to invest and the Hoffas' have confessed to being a hypocrit! Now we should warm things up for these guys to help get them sobered up. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

Bernie wrote: "...Hoffas' have confessed to being a hypocrit!..."

Exactly what did Hoffa say that you consider a confession to being a hypocrite?

Another Bernie Lie!

Mr. Hoffa-- "Ms."? ; )

@Bren -

Hoffa is pretty sure that it's either Ms. or Mrs. ;-)

Like Hoffa stated many times before, Hoffa is willing to meet with you in person and guarantees that your online and personal anonymity would continue so long as you agreed to return such courtesy to Hoffa. Hoffa thinks it would be fun to meet up.

Miky off a tad. We are still pulling ourselves out Bush's mess.
Volatility markets contributed to the tumultuous finish to Bush administration. 2008 with reckless policies and omissions, created the perfect storm. Bush entered office with DOW at 10,587; left office with the Dow at 7,949 producing a negative market loss through out his tenure. Last 17 months stock markets experienced an historical loss of 58%! This was worst than any 17month rolling cycle of the Great Depression.
The Perfect Storm
1] Feb. 2008 Fannie Mae reports $3.55 Billion lost for 4th quarter of 2007. 2] March Bear Sterns accepts buy out by J.P. Morgan Chase. This was a $30 Billion bail out transaction by the Fed.’s. [from Fed. Reserves]
3] Carlyle Group defaults on $16.6 Billion debt. 4] Government supports Fannie May and Freddie Mac with $200Billion. 5] April International Monetary Fund projects a $945 Billion loss from the financial crisis. G7 institutes financial regulations. 6] June Home repossessions more than doubles. Two Bear Sterns managers charged with fraud relating to the subprime mortgage market. 7] July price of oil hits all time high at $145 per barrel while gas goes to $4.00 8] Indy Mac collapses, Fannie May and Freddie Mac continue to spiral down. Bush ignores it.
Have some more on the various collapses if you like.

Bernie, Barack Hussein Obama has had four years to make any sort of progress.
Top reasons to fire Obama:
10) Food Stamp President not a good title
9) Gas prices still near $4.00
8) Government Motors
7) Solyndra
6) Still thinks spending $110,000 to create a job is a good value
5) Still no idea how far Fast and Furious goes up the food chain
4) over 40 months of 8%+ unemployment
3) 27% increase in spending since January, 2009
2) Obamacare does NOTHING to bring fiscal stability to health care
and the number one reason to fire Obama
1) 60% increase in debt since January, 2009

Top of Form 1

Bottom of Form 1
The Anti-Alinsky
6:09 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
Bernie, Barack Hussein Obama has had four years to make any sort of progress.
Top reasons to fire Obama:
10) Food Stamp President not a good title
9) Gas prices still near $4.00
8) Government Motors
7) Solyndra
6) Still thinks spending $110,000 to create a job is a good value
5) Still no idea how far Fast and Furious goes up the food chain
4) over 40 months of 8%+ unemployment
3) 27% increase in spending since January, 2009
2) Obamacare does NOTHING to bring fiscal stability to health care
and the number one reason to fire Obama
1) 60% increase in debt since January.
Bernie replies;
93% is just blatantly false the other 7% is argumentative and irrelevant. Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/ As to Obamacare sure beats the republican health care plan, http://youtu.be/6ik4f1dRbP8

Here are the facts AGAIN Bernie:
( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf )

YEAR ------ TOTAL SPENT ---% INCREASE
----------------(in millions)
2008 ..........2,982,544 .............9.30% (last year of Bush)
2009 ..........3,517,677 ...........17.94% (transition budget with TARP)
2010 ..........3,456,213 ............-1.75% (first Obama budget)
(still higher than 2008 by 15.88%)
2011 ..........3,603,061 .............4.25%
2012 ..........3,795,547 .............5.34% (estimate)
and the politifact followups:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/25/lots-heat-and-some-light-obamas-spending/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-2/2012/05/30/gJQA3V4d2U_blog.html

and a few other sources:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/24/Politifact-Obama-Not-a-Big-Spender

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-3/2012/06/05/gJQAY9YhGV_blog.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/05/actually-the-obama-spending-binge-really-did-happen/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450910257188398.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

So how do you go from 2.982 TRILLION to 3.795 TRILLION (a 27% increase in four years) and still have "the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years"?!?!?!?!?!

PWCG ; What can I say? You Nailed IT! I'm in the same arena as you. Blue skys nothing Blue skies do I see.....

@PWCG -

Are you able to pay your share of the $6T in new Obama debt with your retirement proceeds?

How does one make a bet with a secret identity? How do we know you are even a real person and not a computer program design to emit talking points and random sentences and insults?

Keith, I didn't see the actual bet in question, but if you did place a wager, don't make bets with internet "ghosts!"

@Bren -

If you don't know the original terms of the wager, then why are you proceeding to comment on something you know nothing about?

Really makes you look bad!

FYI - The terms were that once Walker won the recall election, Schmitzy was to pay Hoffa IN PERSONA within two weeks of the election at a public location of his choosing. After the election, Hoffa repeatedly asked Schmitzy to name a date, time, and location of his choosing. Instead Schmitzy replied that he would send a check in the mail if Hoffa provided him with a mailing address. After expressing his disappointment about not being able to meet Schmitzy in person, Hoffa complied and provided Schmitzy with a mailing address, thereby assenting to Schmitzy's modification about sending payment via the mail. Schmitzy, self admittedly, never sent the payment in the mail, as he said he would.

Schmitzy wants to modify the terms of the wager yet again, demanding that Hoffa reveal his true identity to the Patch community. That condition was never a part of the original wager and Hoffa does not assent to such a modification.

Schmitzy is low life LIAR and your defense of him and accusing Hoffa of being "a computer program design to emit talking points and random sentences and insults" doesn't say very much about you either.

When addressing Bren from now on, Hoffa will have to use the infamous line from Disney's 'Tron' (1984) - "Greetings program" ;-)

Actually, I'm lazy. I simply chose to induce the information from you instead of going back and reading the comment history.

You write under a pseudonym too, wouldn't you prefer not to reveal yourself? Have the check mailed "Attn: "James R Hoffa" at Patch and be done with it. Then you can treat me to a sushi lunch for my moderating services (see image above).

; )

@Bren -

That's quite the impressive spread - you appear to be quite the expensive date!

But Hoffa would be willing to treat Bren to dinner, however, we'd have to take Hoffa's American union worker produced Jeep ;-)

Let me know if you're game - Hoffa would love to meet you!

Hofason is a Walker clone.

James R Hoffa
12:51 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012

The Hoffas’ are crying for a bet collection. After all this time finally Hoffa is exposed once again. Must be that TEA still lingering. Knowing you and you knowing me. Ya just know I can’t let this one slide. True have no knowledge of the specifics to the bet. Suspect it was something to do about proving a point on some issue or other. In which case suggest you pay. After all your semantically twisted arrogance on something as trivial as to when is a business officially declared closed and you to this day, do not comprehend that!
Hey I know what you can do have Jimmy Hoffa pay it instead of James. That way James can remain the obstinate fool without batting an eye. Glad I could help…

James R Hoffa
12:51 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012

Bernie replies;
Well low and behold found the specifics to the bet. Goes something like this.
“FYI - The terms were that once Walker won the recall election, Schmitzy was to pay Hoffa IN PERSONA within two weeks of the election at a public location of his choosing.”
Now, Now Hoffa you know as well as everybody here Walker did not win. He lost control of his senate to the democrats. Thus it is you that is required to pay. Tell ya what I’ll do, meet me in front of city hall at midnight of the 24th of this month, to pay me in person and I’ll pass it on to Schmitz. Glade to help.. P.S. Don’t tell Schmitz I want to surprise him.. See ya..

Fred Wordell, rinse and repeat: the Democrats did not have a two-year supermajority in 2009-2010. It was about 6 months of legislative time, 8 months total. This is due to the late seating of Al Franken and the death of Ted Kennedy (with subsequent election of a Republican).

Scott Walker is an ALEC puppet. His ALEC union stripping bill (Act 10) is embroiling the courts and our tax dollars in controversy because parts of it are found to violate our state constitution (no surprise since it wasn't written in Wisconsin); the ALEC voter ID bill is being challenged by the U.S. Department of Justice in former slave states and is again wasting court time and Wisconsin taxpayer dollars (more cookie-cutter legislation). Following a special interest agenda to knock the props out of Democratic Party funding and middle/working incomes is "sweeping, bold change" of the worst kind--throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yes, spending was cut, but the 2011 round of state employee wage concessions didn't go to alleviate the bottom line, they were used to fund ALEC corporate tax cuts in the 2011-13 budget. And Walker still had to restructure debt, gifting state taxpayers with another $20 million in interest charges, just so he could claim to have a balanced budget for the recall election.

We have to get real about the issues. Tax cuts for the rich don't trickle down. And we need to restore Glass-Steagall, pronto.

Greetings program Bren!

Hoffa sees that your fascination with ALEC continues!

@VLC -

You only look at half the story:

1) Clinton's so-called surplus was only made possible due to his borrowing $1T from the SS Trust fund.

2) The Bush tax cuts contributed to our economic prosperity for nearly 8 years.

3) It's typical when our government fights wars to put them on the credit card. Remember war bonds? Did you fault Woodrow Wilson for putting WWI on the credit card? How about FDR and Truman for putting WWII on the credit card? Or what about LBJ for Vietnam? Or do you fault Republican wars when they go on the credit card?

And that big financial collapse - caused by consumers who defaulted on their promises to repay loans.

Obama never proposed anything that actually cleans up the mess - all of his proposals only act to continue to add to the mess!

VLC needs to do his homework better and apply his standards consistently across the board instead of being so partisan!

James R Hoffa
12:51 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
Bernie replies.
What a bunch of balderdash. With the wave your usless rhetoric and you actually think that the $5.6 trillion SURPLUS is not relevant? Your callow non facts are just that, callow. Nothing new about selling debt to pay war. That was instrumental in defeating the South during the Civil War. South had placed their value in gold and lost.
War Bonds have been in use for some time now. It was only recently that republicans have used that and inappropriate funds to disastrous ends, Reagan and two bushwhackers have promoted a debt of $12.2 Trillion [ Adding in Chinas’ loan and the S,S. republicans never paid back.] There is a thing of too much; and it becomes a runaway debt cycle. Which is what republicans wanted, to advance their plutocracy agendas. Obama put the breaks on that and republicans are furious.
Remember Japan and what motivated Truman to use the Atomic Bomb? Simple economics. They could not economically survive the invasion of Japan. ITS ALL ABOUT ECONOMICS! Now you want to give it back to the republicans who have vowed to use the same failed systems that got us into this mess. Pluto arising in your future?
Too much of NOTHING makes a fella mean.. and will do most anything, usually what is not expected. Meanness does that to animals…

@Hoffa The only positive that I have seen is that the American people's savings rate has improved. They are more prudent with their spending. Before the crash the savings rate was in the negative. This could not be sustained. Now, atleast, we are atleast in positive territory- at about 4%.

@Michael McClusky -

It'll be interesting to see how long that trend continues. How long did such trend last coming out of the Great Depression?

@Hoffa I don't mean bore to you about the Federal Reserve, but I feel that if its current policies continue the savings rate of the American people will naturally fall. When commodity prices are artificially raised due to currency manipulation, it hurts us all in the short and long term.

@Michael -

Not at all boring - Hoffa wishes that more people were talking about the Fed's actions! Of course Hoffa would be content and settle if most people only had a clue as to what it is that the Fed actually does!

@Hoffa Did you know that someone successfully sued the Federal Reserve over the Freedom of Information Act? The Fed was forced to reveal that it gave 7.7 trillion dollars electronically to foreign banks, companies and individuals soon after the bank bailouts. The Fed did not have Congressional approval.There is no wonder that Ron Paul wants the Fed to be audited.
This year it was revealed that the Treasury Dept. had purchased over 2 trillion dollars of money market products without Congressional approval. It was supposed to be a secret. Isn't Congress supposed to be in charge of federal finances?

@Michael McClusky -

Hoffa believes that the Fed is more secretive than the CIA, NSA, Pentagon, etc. If all of their actions were fully known, it would probably crash the global economy overnight. While taking us off the gold standard was necessary, it opened up a whole new can of worms, unfortunately.

If people knew the truth, faith would be lost instantaneously.

@mau -- if you deal through a financial adviser or broker, you're going to pay a commission regardless of your rate of return. I've paid commissions on funds that were losing money.

I agree -- savings accounts an CDs should pay a higher rate of return than they currently do. But this is nothing unique to the current President.

@mau -

Don't forget that those low interest rates and printing money like it's going out of style is causing massive inflation and devaluing the currency that you're lucky enough to hold. That's the Obama plan!

The increase in the cost of living period is unsettling. We are always in sticker shock.

Are you serious. If it wasn't for investors, where would the money come from to loan out to the slackers?

You are insisting aren't you? You expect a job in return. And getting a lot more money for your investment than I am.

@VLC -

So, Hoffa guesses that you consider all Amish to be extraordinarily uneducated, yes?

There are certain things that our government is supposed to do - like laws protecting private property rights. While public education is something that Hoffa supports, it's not something that government has to do, and government can only provide the opportunity - it's up to the individual student to take advantage of that opportunity if they wish to succeed, and the government can't force that. Infrastructure is largely provided by user fees - if you don't use, you don't pay very much towards supporting it. Hoffa supports user paid infrastructure. As for earned income programs so that the elderly are not living in poverty - that is a joke. Essentially those programs are saying to people that the government doesn't trust you to use your own money wisely. Therefore, the government treats everyone like children and takes part of their wages and sets it aside for their later years, deciding when and how much at time people can access their own money. It's insulting to anyone with half a brain. Let the people decide how to spend/save/invest their own money - treat us like adults!

You're the uneducated one who feels entitled to a government that will wipe your ass for you.

mau is merely expecting a government that promotes and enacts sound monetary policy - she doesn't feel entitled to anything except a government that works the way it's supposed to.

VLC; I agree.Notice how mau Hoffa only solutions, keep cycling back to failed yesteryear strategies.Those that want less regulation and laws. Sorta like the criminal mind would embrace. Bush proved that deregulating breeds corruptions.
FDR and Eccles [economic advisor] proved it’s the middle class is the engine of our society.
Inequality is the nemesis of all society and their sovereignties. Observe one end of inequality; 1776, Arab Spring and then observe Sweden who has controlled their inequality. Check out how they did through this recession.
Then observe that we are at 1.2% of our populace hoards 40% of our Nations wealth. 2008 Great Recession. 1929 1% hoarded 43% of Nations wealth. Great Depression. Coincidence? Nope.. Now observe USA is a major contender for the most grievously abuser of inequality in the western civilized world.
Health Care policies has been evaluated by the “World Bank” No doubt to determine our risk factors.
Medicaid programs have been scaled back. {“Poison Pill”} as one example. Increasing our losses to health issues. “Especially among the impoverished. Life expectancy in the USA is 78 years, {10% less for improvished}; Lower than Japan’s 83 years or Australia’s or Israel’s 82 years… 2009 “World Bank” USA ranked fortieth overall, just below Cuba.
Have much more on the inequality of our nation and its affects.
The 1% have turned the pyramid upside down to have welfare trickle to them.

Your comment is incorrect. Your conclusion is callow.

Don't you think that "for the good of All people in the USA", the House and Senate SHOULD work with the President! And why didn't they? I'll tell you why they didn't; THIS ELECTION! This was done to ensure that a repubican gets voted into the White-House. I think your proposal is excactly what they were counting on. I for one can see through that and I have faith that enough Americans can too.
Sending Mitt to the presidency would not be a good thing for our economy or our great country. Let him stay in Mass. where he can do damage on a smaller scale. Oh wait, he's done that already.
And Daniel, it's President B.O. to you.

A McDonald's closed in Waukesha?

@McBride -

You're awesome!

Wisconsin's small businesses are working, thank you Governor Walker!!!

Oh by the way Wendy, this is the USA, it's still the land of Freedom and I choose not to add that moniker, I have that choice; at least for now. In fact, I think it would be a good start to get these people off their High Horses to quit adding these titles to their names. Do I call my manager at work Manager George, or Asst. Mgr Ringo, no, he is George and the other is Ringo. That's the great thing about Freedom, you have choices.

@Jason,

For the sake of argument, let's assume you have male genitalia. In that case, you pay more for vehicle and life insurance.

@Daniel S -

This is one of the stupidest comments that Hoffa has ever wasted his time reading or responding to - Congratulations, Hoffa is sure that your mother is proud!

Ford??? Are you serious?!?! If Bren had purchased a non-Mexican assembled Ford, Hoffa would not be constantly reminding her of what her chosen automobile stands for.

"Who drives consumerism . . . . . who creates the desire or need"

Ummm... do you really need Hoffa to answer this question for you? If so, then Hoffa suggests backing away from the computer, as such technology is obviously a little too advanced for you.

Consumer's needs/wants/desires drive consumerism. Demand is far more powerful than supply.

Either you need to see a mental health professional right away or at the very least demand that the taxpayers get refunded the money spend on your public education!

Hoffa remember ... Daniel is one of you.

The Hoffas' are once again exposing their naked ignorance for us all to admire.

@ Bucky: how am I one of Hoffa, I am myself and am nothing of him at all. Outside of being a human I have no more connection to Hoffa than I do to you, after all; we are all related.

Daniel,perhaps you have noticed that Mr. Hoffa has a pattern of seizing and collecting random ideas and statements, repeating them frequently, then eventually shifting to others and returning to them from time to time as ideas apparently lag. Most recent is the "Schmitz owes me $50." The issues about my car and gender determination are months old but we're resuscitating them this week apparently. It's sort of interesting.

Hey Bren, thanks for answer about the car etc., I appreciate it and will leave it at that.

What Bren describes is behavior very similar to her own - especially concerning ALEC, the Koch Bros, Ayn Rand, etc. While Bren may drop the ALEC/Koch/Hendricks/Rand talking points for a few days a time, she always seems to come back to them like clock work.

Hoffa supposes that Bren does this because "ideas apparently lag."

What is it that is said about great minds again... :-)

@Brian Dey -

Hoffa concurs with that! Food costs at the restaurant have gone up 34% over the last four years. Hoffa now has little choice but to raise prices which translates to less business.

Obamacare, increased taxes on businesses, increased unemployment insurance costs on businesses, increased FUTA and FICA share on businesses, and if Obama is successful in raising the minimum wage, a big Democratic initiative, Hoffa will probably have to close the restaurant and lay off all his employees.

It's not worth it to Hoffa to operate the business at break ever or at an out-of-pocket loss, which would just be plain stupid!

Obama's policies are small business and job killers! When will the rest of America wake up to the reality?

Brian Dey must be playing a Bear Market strategy. No wonder he is losing. Its a Bull Market. Obamacare does not raise premiums another one of your lies. Seriously doubt your in business. If you are, with that limited educational ability you exhibit here; You won't be for long.

A notice of our open healthcare enrollment had this statement through it repeatedly: "Increased due to the requirements in the Patient Protection and Affordable Healthcare Act..."

Bernard Forand=Obama stooge

My Premiums Increase Directly due to Obamacare

@Daniel S. -

The desire for the general concept/purpose behind the computer came first. Then someone invented the computer (highly disputed as to who was 'first' and highly contingent upon how one defines the term 'computer') to meet that demand. Did people necessarily know that their demand would take the form of a computer - no. But the objective factual reality is that the computer filled a pre-existing demand that people had to better organize and access data.

Like Hoffa said, you really should demand that the taxpayers are refunded whatever amount of money was spent on your public education, as you were clearly let down by the system!

Sure, that makes plenty of sense, not. How could consumers desire something that did not exist? I will agree, someone invented the computer, but they didn't do it because a bunch of people were at Sears Roebuck or Montgomery Ward demanding a computer . . . . when you catch up to me, I'll let you know.

@Daniel S. -

What's the matter with you? Hoffa already explained this to you. Were the words that Hoffa used too much for your apparent level of comprehension to handle?

Let's try this again.

First off, a computer is a luxury/desire/want - it is not a need/necessity.

Second, before the computer ever came to be, man had dreamed of being able to organize and retrieve data in a much more efficient manner than what previously existed - paper files. Don't believe Hoffa, try opening a sci-fi book that was written prior to the existence of computers. There was a DEMAND for something more effective and efficient. The people who invented, produced and SUPPLIED the market with the computer did so in response to that demand. And people purchased it because it met the desire that they demanded for a more effective and efficient means of organizing and retrieving data.

Hoffa is not going to explain it again. However, as a taxpayer, I'd like back whatever share of your public education Hoffa foot the bill for, as that money apparently went to waste!

Good luck telling those folks anything... We have anti-intellectuals like Hoffa to thank for much of the mess that we're in right now.

There are no rich and powerful democrats.

I don't need any graduate-level courses to know what hits my pocket book.

Ron Paul and Rand Paul are the answer.

VLC - good government policy? Like hiring a tax cheat as our Secretary of Treasury? Oh wait, he did finally pay up when he had to. I am in no position to logically argue why our top IRS guy did not pay his taxes nor understand he what he had to pay. You are right, I cannot logically argue that. Did he not take graduate level courses? He must have schooled himself on the theory.

You should drop him a call and make sure you logically pitch Tim on your expertise in macroeconomics.

@VLC -

Such a closed and limited frame of mind you have.

Apparently, you believe that only people who have specific paper behind their names are capable of providing a valid opinion on specific matters. One must then ask why you don't take your own advice and remain silent as opposed to sharing your unqualified opinions with us - can you say hypocrite?

If you only ever trust those with specific paper, then I guess you would never consider Bill Gates' or Steve Jobs' opinion on the topic of computer sciences, as neither has "taken graduate-level courses" in computer sciences. In fact, both are undergrad dropouts. Although, Hoffa questions how exactly and why you're using the internet, as after all, you'd never trust technology developed by people that didn't take "graduate-level courses," right? Using your logic, Gates and Jobs are clueless when it comes to the computer sciences.

And your last line about the GOP conclusively proves you as the HACK you truly are.

Cheers!

Neither Obama or Romney is the solution. Ron Paul is the solution.

@Johnny Paycheck Don't vote for either the Republicans or Democrats until they pass true campaign finance reform. Both parties have been bought and paid for.
Vote for Gary Johnson of the Libertarian Party!

We had the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform until Obama broke his commitment with McCain to take federal funding.

@Michael McClusky-- that is some very good advice. The notion that a 3rd party candidate can't win is one of the biggest frauds ever to have been perpetrated upon the American people. The majority of the people who I've spoken to prefer the third party candidates over the two polished turds we've been asked to choose between, but say that they don't want to waste their vote on a 3rd party candidate because the corporate owned "news" media outlets have told them that so many times.

@Johnny Paycheck I agree that the corporate news media is a sham and that I discourage people from even watching those outlets. People have to stop being sheep and get away from being herded into their little pens. Sound bites should not be the order of the day. Take the time to investigate matters on your own and we will all be the wiser.

Good to hear!!! This must mean that you are a public worker and are finally paying your fair share.

Have to agree 100%, he's like a cancer.

Demand is very low, but supply is very high (and cheap).
There are no jobs for the economy to rebound because of one manufacturing Country- China!
They didn't get to this point overnight. It took years for China to build infrastructure and plants capable of producing almost every product America wants and needs.
Yes it took many years but they are the soon to be biggest economy in the world. This you can thank Bill Clinton for- he gave China most favored Nation status.
WTF do people not understand this?

Daniel S. - based on your response, Hoffa not only caught up to you, he flew right by you. Your elevator did not make it to the top.

Page 3 of 3
. That didn’t stop the group from sending dozens of white “poll watchers” to precincts in the district during the 2010 elections, deliberately creating friction with black voters.
On the day of the recall election of Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, the group used inaccurate lists to slow down student voting at Lawrence University in Appleton with intrusive identity checks. Three election “observers,” including one from True the Vote, were so disruptive that a clerk gave them two warnings, but the ploy was effective: many students gave up waiting in line and didn’t vote.
True the Vote, now active in 30 states, hopes to train hundreds of thousands of poll watchers to make the experience of voting like “driving and seeing the police following you,” as one of the group’s leaders put it. (Not surprisingly, the group is also active in the voter ID movement, with similar goals.) These activities “present a real danger to the fair administration of elections and to the fundamental freedom to vote,” as a recent report by Common Cause and Demos put it.
The Voting Rights Act of 1965 prohibits intimidation or interference in the act of voting, but the penalties are fairly light. Many states have tougher laws, but they won’t work unless law enforcement officials use them to crack down on the illegal activities — handed down from Jim Crow days — of True the Vote and similar groups.

Bill has the solution; http://youtu.be/fqPRWWu47mg

Bob McBride
6:59 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012
Bernard, I'd really like to see you get away from the condensed, Reader's Digest versions of your mental meanderings and share, in full, your thoughts on virtually everything.
Thanks.
Bernie replies.
New York Times is not readers digest. I know your Foxy Rush Rove education explains it to you that way. Simpleton is as Simpleton does.
I know for such a one and a few others, like you, on this thread have little ability to comprehension. So I’ll spell it out for you.
Republicans through their policies are advocating the old Anarchist ideology of the 1809 era up to the 1850’s. Now that they have the 40% of our Nations wealth all they have to do is convince the 47% to increase to 90%. They will alter the laws and regulations to get ya’ll on board. Then the blossoming of their plutocracy can burst forth with their dictators, emperors, hierology, aristocrat and so on, ideologies. Have a couple of books that explains “How To Do Anarchist” simple version if you would like. You would have to pull yourself away from your comic books and tabloids though. Seriously doubt you have that discipline. “IF” you do give a shout and then you to will know your best strategy to live in serfdom of the plutocracy. As the Romans would put it. “Ya have to be worth your salt one who is not worth their salt will soon perish”
Nope no Health Care except at the end of a sword for the 90%. Pension LOL
Welcome..

Respond to this comment.

What - no response, Bernie? C'mon. Someone's paying attention to you. Respond. Just blurt out anything like you did before. Entertain me.

yOU MEAN LIKE WE HAD UNDER bUSH ?

I will answer the question, yes, I am better off than I was 4 years ago. In 2005, my husband lost his factory job that he had for thirty years. If Pres.Obama is to blame for the closing of the plant in Janesville, then I will blame G.W.Bush for that one! My husband went to college, got a degree, and is now working as a welder. Unfortunately he did not find a job in the field he schooled for, but he did not sit on his hands waiting for a handout like republicans think all democrats that are out of a job do!
Doug, yea, my heart breaks for poor Mitt, you know, being bullied by all the media for his tax records. If he's so on the up and up, why doesn't he just come out with them. Just one more reason he should not be president of this great country. It's a shame that more people can't see through him.
And Paul Ryan, don't get me started on him! He is a wolf in sheeps clothing! ( My appologies to wolves.) He would take his own mothers social security away if it would get him elected. Who is that woman that he follows, like she is a religion to him!?
I'll stay with Pres.Obama, thank you.

@Wendy -- The woman is Ayn Rand, who wrote fantasies about 'self-sufficiency' and believed in it herself until she got lung cancer from years of smoking and then happily used Medicare and spousal Social Security from her dead husband. Every man for himself -- until that 'man' is you.

Poor Randy, always living off of the hard work of others. Have you ever heard of rugged individualism? Why must you always want others including yourself, to leech off of society?

Hi, Alfred. Long time no see. For the bazillionth time, I'm not on any form of government assistance, and I'm part of the elite 53% that pays federal income tax.

As for rugged individualism, did you grow the food you ate for breakfast? Did you make the computer you're typing on? Didn't think so. Now pardon me while I go finish repairing my roof -- by MYSELF.

@Randy1949 -

Best of luck on the roof work - it's windier than all get up at Hoffa's abode today!

@SOK I have seen that movie and my view on Obama has been discouraged even more. However, the real problem with this election is the unlimited amount of secret funds that are funding both campaigns. You are right- neither party really cares about us. We need campaign finance reform immediately. Vote for Gary Johnson of the Libertarian Party and send the message that those two other parties had better clean up their act!

I agree the entire system needs to be reconstructed. It starts with electing a president who does NOT favor bigger government! The problem with a vote for a third party Michael is it practically hands Obama another 4 years. It won't send a message in time to rescue the country from going bankrupt. Love or hate Clint Eastwood's act at the convention, but he had it right when he said, these politicians work for us and if they don't do the job..."you gotta let them go!"

What is wrong with the U.S. economy? The short answer is it’s still recovering from the Crash of 2008. This may sound obvious, but it hasn’t stopped some people from pretending our problems began after President Obama was inaugurated in January 2009.
The recession President Obama inherited in 2009 was no ordinary recession—it was triggered by the collapse of an $8 trillion housing bubble. Construction in the housing sector kept the U.S. economy on life support during the Bush years, but this life support was withdrawn almost overnight.
In addition, with the collapse of home prices and pension wealth, more than $12 trillion of household wealth was sucked out of the U.S. economy in 2008, so families had to cut back on spending—especially families that had borrowed heavily during the bubble years.
This cutback in spending was like slamming on the brakes, and it caused the largest increase in unemployment since the Great Depression. President Obama’s stimulus bill stopped the free fall, but it wasn’t nearly big enough to fill a hole of more than 10 million jobs or to make the employment rate bounce back from its 2009 low.
Even today, mortgage debt is still a drag on the recovery as households slowly repair their balance sheets. As many as a third of all mortgages are for more than the underlying property is worth.
Inequality is the base of the collapse and will remain until addressed. Your Romney/Ryan seek to increase inequality. Talk about shooting yourself..

Obama must first stabilize the infrastructures of our markets. From Bush’s 9% contraction rate and rapidly descending into the abyss. In 27 months Obama stopped the free fall of our markets. Ending the Great Recession. Great Depression took 13 Years.
. Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets LOST of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.
Next will be to stimulate the middle class and their laborer’s. Presently 4.3 Million jobs returned. Still has 5.7 million to go. Romney would do as Bush did to Clintons SURPLUS running financings. Throw them under the bus and go back to the same policies that created this Great Recession.

@Douglas Fellows Look at today's Wall Street Journal's website. You will find an interactive diagram of all of the open and secret contributors to the Republican and Democratic parties. Any unbiased person can clearly see that it has become way out of hand. We have to do something about it now!

@VLC -

Stop lying - it's unbecoming:

"The GOP is a coalition of the rich and the stupid, and it's not the stupid that are setting the agenda. You both are pawns."

According to your own logic, you don't have the training necessary to fairly assess and judge the GOP agenda/platform/policy position, and yet, that didn't stop from stating the apparently unfounded and unsupported opinionated comment that Hoffa quoted above.

Not to mention your entire 12:30 pm on Sunday, September 23, 2012 comment offers nothing but opinion.

And now you have the audacity to try and lie about your previously made comments?!?!

As Hoffa said before, you are little more than a hack - just accept it and deal with it. The sooner you admit to having a problem, the sooner you can be on the road to recovery!

"Bernard", you sir are an idiot.

Idiot is too kind. Due to the terms and conditions one can not say descripively what Bernard really is.

Your facts are false. You are no ace more like duece.

@Bernie -

It would be nice if Bernie learned how to effectively use the 'Reply' button, as then Bernie wouldn't have to re-quote entire comments from others when responding to them with this patented brand of gibberish and nonsense, and thereby fouling up the boards with excessive garbage!

Bernie could then also learn how to use spacing and paragraph structure to make his bloviating more reader-friendly for the rest of the users on this forum!

Thanks!

The only ones not concerned are the insane and the folks already on the government teats.

@Julie -

Don't forget about your share of the $6T in new Obama debt from a President that promised to half the deficit in his first term.

Hoffa you need to keep up. Republican super packs are forming a union to focus their propganda. Even Joe Rickette had to be straightened out on his propganda trail and to get in line. One of the points they will be using in about 10 days is not 6 trillion but 5 trillion. Of course the rebutal is 1.4 Trillion deficet with 9% contracion is the incurred deficit from Bush.. Oh another one is their going to drop that relegious stuff theres more if you want. They will be firing up in about 10 days right now they have a few prototypes out.

@Bernie -

When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626T. Today, the national debt stands at $16.016T. Thus far, Obama has added $5.39T. At current spending levels, and by the end of Obama's term, the debt added by Obama is projected to be over $6T.

Source: The US Treasury.

But please, keep on blaming Bush - doing so makes your side look highly desperate!

You're wrong (truth be told I didn't read much of it). I just know you're wrong.

Ball's in your court again, Bernie. And try the reply button. It won't bite.

Bernard is in a make believe alternative universe - I didn't break into that house, and if I did, I did not steal your TV, and if I did, I only got $50 bucks for it.

@ Bernie wrote "5. Throughout economic history, tax cuts NEVER led to a growth boom, government spending on infrastructure and education HAS. "

Sounds like Bernie forgot about Regan tax cuts! He probably also forgot about Bus 41's tax hike and how that affected the economy.

Bernie replies;
Dear ANTI} ...its not my idea. It was Marrimer Eccles economic advisor to FDR. History has proven it to be correct. Suggest you do some research before you get any more tangled up. LOL Reagan first president to send over $ 2.2 Trillion Deficit and into recession.
Observe how F. D.R. with the genius of Marrimer Eccles focused on strengthening the middle class. Engine to our financial establishment is sustained with a flow of liquidity. Middle class are the consumers that produce liquidity via their rapid expenditures for consumption of products produced. Preventing that, by hording the wealth to a few, decimates the consumers for production of products and its consumption. Eliminate consumer no products sold. Business fail . Game over? Example;… 5 people playing poker. Game progresses and the pot goes to 2 winners. They play as long as the other 3 have credit. When that is gone, game over.
Note; at that time of F.D.R. the 1% of the population held 43% of the nations wealth. Presently 1.2% hold 40% of the wealth. Middle class lost a big hand. Game nearly over. Strengthen the middle class by infusing health and prosperity becomes the responsibility of the government. Incorrect polices that stimulate the 1.2% will hasten the termination of the game. It is now time to stimulate the middle class to increase liquidity. “if” you wish to keep the game going.

5.6 Trillion surplus? LOL, OMG, YGTBFKM.
I think Clinton raided the SS Trust fund by $1 Trillion to balance the budget, but there was no f in surplus you stooge.

@Bernie -

You really need to learn more about the national debt:

When Carter left office the national debt stood at $909B.

Reagan added $1.692T over 8 years. Reagan also admitted that the accumulation of debt was the greatest failure/regret of his Presidency.

When H.W. Bush took office, the national debt stood at $2.601T. Bush Sr. added $1.4T over 4 years.

When Clinton took office, the national debt stood at $4.001T. Clinton added $1.726T over 8 years.

When W. Bush took office, the national debt stood at $5.727T. Bush Jr. added $4.899T over 8 years.

When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626T. Today, the national debt stands at $16.016T. Thus far, Obama has added $5.39T.

Total GOP debt since Carter: $7.991T over 20 years.
Total Dem debt since Carter: $7.116T over 11.5 years.

Thus, if you accurately and fairly asses based on time frame, you'll clearly see that while both parties have been massive spenders over the last 32 years, the Dems are definitely outspending the GOP by a margin of almost 2:1.

Excellent Post Hoffa!
Still waiting for Bernard Forehand to reply......?????
sfx. crickets chirping........

Total BS Hoffa. Lets look at it from 80 years back. Instead of your framed in stage display of a paper moon over a cardboard sea. Study has been done on that specific issue by Pedro Santa-Clara
Nova School of Business and Economics; National Bureau of Economic Research
(NBER); Centre for Economic Policy Research (CEPR)
Rossen I. Valkanov
University of California, San Diego (UCSD) - Rady School of Management
Now are just tad more accurate then any of your baloney.

Pedro Santa Clara and Rossen Valkanov Concurred that the democrats fared better than the republicans by a wide margin. Democrats had consistent above average returns. Most Republicans had lower than average returns and greater volatility.
Santa Clara and Valkanov attribute the difference in returns to the stock markets being systematically and positively surprised to discover that democratic polices in a 80 year time frame of quantifiable data, are the best economic stewards for the nation. Differences are substantial.
End page 1 continued to page two

Bernie replies; Continued from page 1 {page 2}
Democrats had a respectable average return of 9.6% as when compared to republicans 0.58% average returns. If an employee’s 401[K] plan was fully invested in stocks at a value of $100,000, at the beginning of the employee’s 40 years of labor, apply this to both parties for returns.
Republicans Nest egg would have accumulated $224,375.
Democrates Nest Egg would have accumulated $ 3,912,210.
Now at $5,000, initial nest egg investment.
Republicans Nest Egg would have accumulated $126,027.
Democrats Nest Egg would have accumulated $1,985,526.
‘The Presidential puzzle; Political Cycles and the stock market” Accessed December 14 2011, the journal of finance, Vol.LVIII, no.5October 2003

@Bernie -

How can Hoffa's numbers be BS??? They come directly from the US Treasury.

Hoffa: Bernie ignores reality, this is how he comes to the conclusion your numbers are bs. I think he ignores Dr.s orders to take his meds everyday too.

@Craig -

Bernie's problem lies in spending too much time on sites such as moveon.org, ThinkProgress, the Daily Kos, Maddow Blog, etc, instead of actually thinking for himself.

Bernie has no clue what the differences between a surplus, deficit, or debt is!

To Obama the truth is irrelevant. He says whatever he wants, no matter the deceit, and expects his followers to swear by it, to the point of fantasy becoming reality. And, it works! Sad, really. Even the Main Stream Media help perpetuate the fantasies (ie lies).

Our economic crisis was all about a housing bubble caused by CRA, invented by Carter and given teeth by Clinton. Obama continues to blame all sorts of GOP bogymen for political gain -- completely ignoring reality. And, the kool aide drinkers swear by it

The American Dream has been crumbling for a long time (it's almost complete), the only thing that BO and the current administration are truly responsible for: doing virtually nothing to right the sinking ship. They had two years of control and instead of addressing issues, they created more with Obamacare. OBL's capture would have been preferred over his murder as well. What do you want from a man who was not truly prepared to be the leader of the nation . . . . did you ever ponder the thought that maybe he was setup to take the heat of failure?

A cuple of nearsighted morons. Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets lost of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Yes! Including any rolling 17 month period during the Great Depression.
Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.

You want a nightmare well here is your republicans dream.Are we better off than 4 years ago. Well lets take a look see. 4 years ago there was a storm . If I remember correctly.
Storm on the Horizon
Cost increases in financing markets due to laissez-faire polices of the Bush administration. {DEREGULATIONS} !
Hedge funds are speculative by definition, are held accredited [e.g. affluent] investors. They are exempt from many of the public disclosures and requirements of federal securities law. Virtually non-entity prior to 2001. Bush administration hedge funds exploded from $250 Billion enterprise to a $2.5 Trillion enterprise. Lax enforcement of SEC regulations allowed “naked short selling” which makes its profit off the Main Street investors. Buy low sell high standard investors philosophy to the markets. Hedge fund with their vast reserves of liquidity could manipulate the prices to markets with no chances of lost. Make a share drop for short sales profits and rise for harvesting profits. Using other people’s monies! Christopher Cox SEC chairman looked the other way. Small businesses suffered when their stocks dropped and they lost the consumers confidence. Driving some into bankruptcy and disseminated the average retail investors.
End page 1 Contiued

Page 2 continue to 3

Volatility markets contributed to the tumultuous finish to Bush administration. 2008 with reckless policies and omissions, created the perfect storm. Bush entered office with DOW at 10,587; left office with the Dow at 7,949 producing a negative market loss through out his tenure. Last 17 months stock markets experienced an historical loss of 58%! This was worst than any 17month rolling cycle of the Great Depression.
The Perfect Storm
1] Feb. 2008 Fannie Mae reports $3.55 Billion lost for 4th quarter of 2007. 2] March Bear Sterns accepts buy out by J.P. Morgan Chase. This was a $30 Billion bail out transaction by the Fed.’s. [from Fed. Reserves]
3] Carlyle Group defaults on $16.6 Billion debt. 4] Government supports Fannie May and Freddie Mac with $200Billion. 5] April International Monetary Fund projects a $945 Billion loss from the financial crisis. G7 institutes financial regulations.

Page 3;
6] June Home repossessions more than doubles. Two Bear Sterns managers charged with fraud relating to the subprime mortgage market. 7] July price of oil hits all time high at $145 per barrel while gas goes to $4.00 8] Indy Mac collapses, Fannie May and Freddie Mac continue to spiral down. Bush ignores it. 9] Hank Paulson , Secretary of the US Treasury declares in March 2007 “ global economy is more than sound; it’s as strong as I’ve seen it in my business career” 10]September government seizes Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. 11]Sept. 17 Lehman Brothers declares bankruptcy. Merrill Lynch, on the edge of bankruptcy, is acquired by Bank of America. 12]Sept.17 Government bails out AIG for $85 billion 13] Hank Paulson demands a $700 billion bailout plan to banks. 14] Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs forced to convert to bank holding companies, allowing them to borrow directly from fed discount window. 15] Sept.26 Washington Mutual is seized for its failure. 16] Sept 29 Congress denies bailout funds. {$700 billion} 17] Wachovia on brink of collapse negotiates with Citigroup for take over. 18] Largest bailout in US history is approved. 19] Week of Oct. 6 to 10 DOW drops 2,031 points for record weekly lost of 19.67% 20] Obama elected Nov.4th . Economy shrinks in 3rd and 4th quarter of 2008 by 9%. The Greatest Recession since 1929.

Shall we become storm chasers and do it again and again?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

@June -

So, I'm assuming that you can afford your share of the $6T in new Obama debt, which works out to $38,510/taxpayer.

Republican super pac prpoganda has it at 5 Tillion not 6.. "AND" we all know where and who made that possible. The Bushwacking economices linger affects.

@Bernie -

When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626T. Today, the national debt stands at $16.016T. Thus far, Obama has added $5.39T. At current spending levels, and by the end of Obama's term, the debt added by Obama is projected to be over $6T.

Source: The US Treasury.

When divided by the number of tax returns filed last year (Source: Internal Revenue Service), that works out to approximately $38,510. If you believe in Obama so much, then have your bank make a cashier's check in that amount made payable to the IRS with 'debt reduction' stated in the memo, and post it here for all to see!

Come on Bernie, put your money where your big cut and paste mouth is!!!

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

Is that what you do to avoid paying your debts - accuse the masses of being racists and then run away to the foodrepublic.com???

Little wonder that Schmitzy now relies upon government assistance!

Hoffa you lost that bet. Walker lost his "HOUSE!" in that recall. Now pay up.

@ Keith Best also commented on Are You Better Off Than Four Years Ago?.
"Of course we're NOT better off than 4 years ago. Fact: more people are out of work NOW

Bernie replies;
If your not better off than 4 years ago then Baby your just a simple loser. Can’t help you with that.
Babbling about gas prices? What a stooge. DUH! have you forgotten that Bush released the emergency National Oil reserves. Brining the gas down from $4.40 gas per gallon and $145.64 oil per barrel. Temporary drop to soon to go back to rise. Obama suggested we do that again but republicans didn’t like that idea. DUH I wonder why? Remember when gas was 1.74 a gallon and oil was $16 per barrel? Yup just before Bush invaded Iraq. DUH..
Economy? Bush in last 17 months in office lost 58% of our Market values. Greatest loss in our Nations history in a 17 month span. Yup even more than the Great Depression. Obama in 27 months returned markets to value faster then any other president in history. Like I said you are just simply a loser. Nobody can help you with that. Its just you and perhaps the rest of the losers you hang with.

AWD as usual your a merely projecting your hatred onto others. Like water off a ducks back. This will not your self esteem issues.

Page 2 continued

The Clinton years showed the effects of a large tax increase that Clinton pushed through in his first year, and that Republicans incorrectly claim is the "largest tax increase in history." It fell almost exclusively on upper-income taxpayers. Clinton’s fiscal 1994 budget also contained some spending restraints. An equally if not more powerful influence was the booming economy and huge gains in the stock markets, the so-called dot-com bubble, which brought in hundreds of millions in unanticipated tax revenue from taxes on capital gains and rising salaries.

Clinton’s large budget surpluses also owe much to the Social Security tax on payrolls. Social Security taxes now bring in more than the cost of current benefits, and the "Social Security surplus" makes the total deficit or surplus figures look better than they would if Social Security wasn’t counted. But even if we remove Social Security from the equation, there was a surplus of $1.9 billion in fiscal 1999 and $86.4 billion in fiscal 2000. So any way you count it, the federal budget was balanced and the deficit was erased, if only for a while.
Continued

Continued page 3
Update, Feb. 11: Some readers wrote to us saying we should have made clear the difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.
End page 3 continue to 4

Page 4 continued.
Other readers have noted a USA Today story stating that, under an alternative type of accounting, the final four years of the Clinton administration taken together would have shown a deficit. This is based on an annual document called the "Financial Report of the U.S. Government," which reports what the governments books would look like if kept on an accrual basis like those of most corporations, rather than the cash basis that the government has always used. The principal difference is that under accrual accounting the government would book immediately the costs of promises made to pay future benefits to government workers and Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries. But even under accrual accounting, the annual reports showed surpluses of $69.2 billion in fiscal 1998, $76.9 billion in fiscal 1999, and $46 billion for fiscal year 2000. So even if the government had been using that form of accounting the deficit would have been erased for those three years.
- Brooks Jackson
Sources
Congressional Budget Office, "Historical Budget Data," undated, accessed 6 Sep 2010.
Well Craig thanks for the help. Now I can straighten out my records. Surplus remains as a fact in spite of all the republican hype. Imagine what they did to water down Bush's debt?

Bernie it would be better if you used the reply tab rather than type your novel of spin in another area of the discussion, it is simply hard to follow what you are replying to. I stand by my comment that Bill Clinton raided a trillion from SS.
You spin everything until you are backed into a corner and then you drop out of the discussion, so it seems futile.
You never answer when confronted about your love for Clinton....China/ most Favored Nation/ thats where our jobs have gone. You blame greedy Corporations, they only outsource jobs because Clinton made it so.

Your facts are false. Your comment is moot.

Barnard: Some time ago, JRH posted this information below. You went missing once again rather than accept defeat:
When Clinton's first budget went into effect, the nation debt was at $4.351T. When Clinton's last budget ended, the national debt was at $5.769T.
Thus Clinton added $1.418T over 8 years.
Reagan added $1.873T over 8 years.
Bush Sr. added $1.484T over four years.
Bush W. added $4.644T over 8 years.
Obama added $5.587T+ in not even four years yet.
By the time Obama's term ends, he will have single handedly added more in four years than both Bush's combined over 12 years.
*Credit JRH

H.E. Pennypacker: well said. You're correct with the facts. There is no dispute even Bernard can come up with other than to claim they are false. (as usual)
Foreign poilicy failures are illustrated in my links a few comments below.

Craig. Thanks for keeping me up on these post So much Gibberish have been surfing threads from Boston to LA. Chicago to Texas and a bunch in between, As to this debt stuff you guys still not comprehend. Took a while but got this chart to fit here. Actually It goes back to Hoover but takes to much work to get this little bit on. Now KEEP in mind when they show a {-} sign to GDP means GDP increase dropped. {+} means increase to debt of GDP.

………………………………...Start ……..End …….Increase…Increase …House.
……Party/ Term …………….. GDP……..GDP…….Billons…GDP………Senate.

George H. W. Bush R 1989–1993..53.1%…66.1%……+1,483.…+13.0%…….D D… Clinton.
Bill Clinton D 1993–1997.……66.1% ……65.4%………+1,018.….-0.7%…….103rd. D, 104th R 103rd D, 104th R Clinton2
Bill Clinton D 1997–2001.………..65.4%…..56.4%………+401.……-9.0%……R R. Bush GW1.
George W. Bush R 2001–2005.……56.4%…..63.5%…….+2,135.…..+7.1%…….R… 107th Split, 108 R Bush GW2.
George W. Bush R 2005–2009.…….63.5%…..84.2%……..+3,971.…..+20.7%..109th. R, 110th D 109th R, 110th ….D Obama1.
Barack Obama D 2009 -……………84.2%……93.2%…..+1,653.……..+9.0...111th D,

Well I tried. You'll just have to try to put it together. "OR" go research it out. Picked it up when I was rummaging around at the U.S. Bureau of Business statistics.

Craig note This JRH numbers are off. Observe Bush Jr's #er's. Disagrees even with you ans Hoffas numbers. Oh and could you tell The Hoffas his reduntant 6 Tillion stuff has been answered. I even used the reply key. Like I said you guys just keep chasing your tails and think rehotric is all you need. By the way did you get that CBO report I sent you? $5.6 Trillion is erroneous. $256 Billion was the surplus to annual budget spending. Should be on this thread somewhere if not let me know and next time I,m around will drop it off. Note how it exposes The Hoffas as well of using imaginary numbers. LOL $ 1 Trillion from S.S. Hey it was fun though. Ta,Ta for now there's this site where anywhere from 500 to a 1,000 are going at it everyday with about 100 topcs to run around in. People from all over the world with their take on whats going on. Oh yeah right wing trolls are welcomed. Stay out of Boston. Roveits or bad soft ware jamming been going on for about 3 days now. If you want to drop cmment there have it at the ready and drop it then get out before your computer gets tagged. Fun, Fun wherever I go. What a beautifull world.. Ta, Ta

@Bernard: "Next time I'm around I will drop it off"?
What are you implying by that statement?
It could be interpreted as, "I know where you live and I am making a vague threat."
My home is my castle...

@Bernie -

Hoffa's numbers are not wrong - they derive straight from the agency of government responsible for issuing our public debt, the US Treasury.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

That's what's called a primary source of information, unlike all of your secondary and third party sources containing mostly opinion and spin.

When Carter left office the national debt stood at $909B.

Reagan added $1.692T over 8 years.
Bush Sr. added $1.4T over 4 years.
Clinton added $1.726T over 8 years.
Bush Jr. added $4.899T over 8 years.

When Obama took office, the national debt stood at $10.626T. Today, the national debt stands at $16.016T. Thus far, Obama has added $5.39T.

Total GOP debt since Carter: $7.991T over 20 years.
Total Dem debt since Carter: $7.116T over 11.5 years.

There is nothing rhetorical about these very real and indisputable FACTS.

Please, do us all a favor and stop abusing illegal narcotics!

The whole cost of the Iraq war was dumped in Obama's lap. They continue to blame all this debt on Obama due to the stimulus that bailed every State out of it's economic mess. But they all had their hands out for their share even after they voted against it.

Carolo, didn't Barack Hussein Obama say as a candidate in 2008 that he would end the Iraq war? And in fact, didn't we officially end the war last year?

Look at the data provided above. While Barack Hussein Obama wasn't responsible for the Iraq war costs, he has been the President for 38.9 of our debt.

What he has spent the debt on are bad investment's in the economy. Things like Solyndra, ARRA (which at best cost only $110,000/job) and the same old pork he promised to stop. And we still have the cost of Obamacare coming down the road.

And all that spending, all that debt has not improved the economy one bit. Unemployment is still over 8%, (actually closer to 15%), most of the same houses are still underwater or owned by the bank, and we are importing even more goods from China.

No Carolo, we have enough reason's not to elect Barack Hussein Obama without falsely blaming him for the entire cost of the Iraq war!

@ The Anti-Alinsky

Bernie replies;
Knowing your limited math comprehension laid it out pretty simple for ya. Note the +2,135 and the +3,971 Are in Trillions on 4 year terms so they are added. Which gives us $6 Trillion 106 Billions debt to GDP! Which when taken into context with a 9% contraction to GDP that Bush turned over ; PLUS the 58% Loss to markets in his last 17 months in office; {Greater than the Great Depression} Skews the debt as excessive to the receiver and that excessive debt plus interest will remain as the Bush debt that obstructed our fiancés from recovering and as well as increased the cost of repairs and the timeline require to execute those repairs.
“IF” you taken the time to read the link I provided for you to its conclusion you will find that this debt excessive debt transfer was a component in their factoring. Which is why the Hoffas numbers are bogus. They are using them out of context and framing them to skew a promotion of a false conclusion. Between your Math and the Hoffas semantically linguistics find them lacking in merit for a response. Maybe when I find the time but presently as election grows near, have bigger fish to fry.
George W. Bush R 2001–2005.……56.4%…..63.5%…….+2,135.…..+7.1%…….R… 107th Split, 108 R Bush GW2.
George W. Bush R 2005–2009.…….63.5%…..84.2%…+3,971…..+20.7%..109th. R

Go to U.S. Bureau Of Business Statistics and not some right wing US Treasury tabloid.

Dear Carole;
You are spot on. I won’t get into foreign diplomacy that Obama has advanced and their benefits as the vast of other benefits Obama has lavished upon us. Here is just a small sampling of his economics and what rewards we are now enjoying from his investments.
Here in is small sampling of what Obama has achieved. Notice I did not include; Osama Bin Laden, Libya, Iraq, Drawdown, Nobel Prize and so on.
Obama has and is moving us forward at an accelerating rate. Observe the markets of Sept.6 2012.
Observe who rebuilt the infrastructure to hold Bankers to strict derivatives regulations. Banker’s lobbied with over $200 million! to stop the Obama, Elizabeth Warren and Frank Dodds regulations from being implemented. Republicans are still seeking to deregulate them. Expose what their goals are and its NOT for our Main Street USA. { Derivative trading prime suspect for the Great Recession}
Elizabeth goes nose to nose , right in the face, with Wall Streets tycoons. Our lady tiger that has the Tycoons appreciate fear. She is not a BROWN nosing follower of the herded sheep.
2016 she will be a contender for president, my predication. Observe her speech at the convention http://youtu.be/zNcbg1EU_bI U-tube speech.
End page 1 continue to page 2

Page 2 continued
This is one small example of how Obama will seek to continue to move us forward, up and out of the chaos of the republicans mandates.
Fiscal Year{ FY } in politics is from October to September. Bush presented Obama with a 9% constricting economy. Bush received a $256 Billion surplus to the anual budget from Clinton. So lets take that and subtract what Bush debts were, that he handed over to Obama. Bush handed a $1.4 Trillion debt to annual budget!
In 3.3 years Obama is at 15.1% to debt of GDP, from a 20.7% increase to debt by Bush and Bush going rapidly down into the abyss.
Stimulus plan to revitalize the middle class produced a beneficial return on investment. We have seen an impressive recovery in the equity markets from Bush’s stock markets lost of 14 years of gains. Markets had retraced the lows back to 1996 in less than 17 months. Greatest lost ,in market value, in our Nations history. Obama’s actions helped restore equity markets post a gain of 105% through April of 2011. During Obama’s first 27 months in office.
Making up most of the losses with gains to the DOW of 17.2%, S&P 500 25.3% and the NASDAQ 31.7%. Compare this to say Reagan first 3.3 years in office Reagan’s gains to ; DOW 6.86%, S&P 500 6.16%, NASDAQ 7.02%. Obama has Surpassed most of his predecessors, including Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan!
END page 2 continu to 3

Page 3}
Stimulus also stopped the decline in corporate profits that started under George W. Bush. Stimulus helped produce an increase of 22% per year in the first two years.
Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/
Latest up date to Markets; The Fed pledged Thursday to buy $40 billion in mortgage-backed bonds every month from large banks and other dealers in an effort to help free up capital and spur lending. The move is also expected to help push down mortgage rates, already near record lows, to further stimulate the housing market. The central bank said it would continue buying until the unemployment rate, which stood at 8.1 percent in August, decreases significantly.
Wall Street continued to cheer the news. The Dow Jones Industrial Average, which surged more than 206 points after the Fed announcement Thursday -- climbed another 53 points Friday to 13,593, its highest closing since December 2007. Global markets also reacted positively: the Hang Seng index in Hong Kong surged 2.9 percent, the Japanese Nikkei 225 index shot up 1.8 percent, and the British FTSE 100 rose more than 1.6 percent

Here are the facts AGAIN Bernie:
( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf )

YEAR ------ TOTAL SPENT ---% INCREASE
----------------(in millions)
2008 ..........2,982,544 .............9.30% (last year of Bush)
2009 ..........3,517,677 ...........17.94% (transition budget with TARP)
2010 ..........3,456,213 ............-1.75% (first Obama budget)
(still higher than 2008 by 15.88%)
2011 ..........3,603,061 .............4.25%
2012 ..........3,795,547 .............5.34% (estimate)
and the politifact followups:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/25/lots-heat-and-some-light-obamas-spending/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-2/2012/05/30/gJQA3V4d2U_blog.html

and a few other sources:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/24/Politifact-Obama-Not-a-Big-Spender

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-3/2012/06/05/gJQAY9YhGV_blog.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/05/actually-the-obama-spending-binge-really-did-happen/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450910257188398.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

So how do you go from 2.982 TRILLION to 3.795 TRILLION (a 27% increase in four years) and still have "the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years"?!?!?!?!?!

Bernie, Bernie, Bernie,
"I won’t get into foreign diplomacy that Obama has advanced"
Despite the embassy attacks and Israel's disillusionment?

"Observe who rebuilt the infrastructure to hold Bankers to strict derivatives regulations"
Those new regulations will be difficult to implement and possibly burden the country
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7gHomap2FE -this is a source Bernie, it helps to support one's case)

"Fiscal Year{ FY } in politics is from October to September."
The GOVERNMENTAL fiscal year is from October to September. Politics have no fiscal year.

"Bush presented Obama with a 9% constricting economy"
You got a source for that figure Bernie?

"Bush handed a $1.4 Trillion debt to annual budget!"
Bernie, that was for 2009, Barack Hussein Obama's first year in office. While the budget for 2009 was created under Bush's presidency, AND TARP was voted on, Barack Hussein Obama added ARRA and other spending.
And what's your excuse for the 1.295 TRILLION in 2010, the 1.299 TRILLION in 2011 and the estimated 1.326 TRILLION in 2012? Is that also Bush's fault?

"Obama is at 15.1% to debt of GDP, from a 20.7% increase to debt by Bush"
Debt to GDP was 69.7% in 2008, 85.2% in 2009, 94.2% in 2010, 98.7% in 2011 and 104.8%. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

"Making up most of the losses with gains ..."
Remember the .com & housing market bubble bursts? Obama's massive spending is jump pumping up the stock market until that goes too.

I have cited my sources time and again. Where are your's?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Your "facts" are quickly becoming LIES.

Dear Carolo;
Pay little attention to Anti as his and the Hoffas numbers are bogus. Out of context and skewed. Go back through several threads and observe these two. Soon you’ll get the drift. The Hoffas are still fuming over what constitutes a business being closed. Even when the business tells him so! Anti can not apprehend velocity increase and how it is NOT associated to debt, as he tries and tries to say it does. Even when I use child like math to explain if a car goes by at 60 mph and returns at 60mph what is the increase in velocity. Even give him the answer of its Zero! Still can’t figure it out. None so blind as those that choose to be blind. This link is from a Pulitzer Awarded Site that I have given them to read. Do they? Nope maybe a glance. They need to read full report which they never do.. What? Are we to continuously waste time on such nonsense. Think I gave you the site but just in case here it is again;
Obama has had the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/ Pulitzer Awarded Site
LOL no changes personelly? Thats good with such a massive recession. Thank Obama we are not in some bread line having this convesation... Hear the Latest. Tommy got caught on tape at the Tea Party. He confirms that the 47% are to go under the bus.

Bernie wrote: "Pay little attention to Anti as his and the Hoffas numbers are bogus. Out of context and skewed. Go back through several threads and observe these two. Soon you’ll get the drift..."

Yes Carolo, go back through the threads and you will see a pattern emerge. Hoffa and I will state our point clearly and succinctly, referencing data and citing sources as needed. Bernie on the other hand will babble on, use incorrect terms (like using "debt to annual budget" for deficit), provide inaccurate data AND has yet to provide a source (other than the one politifact article with the wrong conclusion).

I have yet to read ONE post of Bernie's that makes ANY sense!

And just so you don't think you slipped on by me:
( http//:www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf )
YEAR ------ TOTAL SPENT ---% INCREASE
----------------(in millions)
2008 ..........2,982,544 .............9.30% (last year of Bush)
2009 ..........3,517,677 ...........17.94% (transition budget with TARP)
2010 ..........3,456,213 ............-1.75% (first Obama budget)
(still higher than 2008 by 15.88%)
2011 ..........3,603,061 .............4.25%
2012 ..........3,795,547 .............5.34% (estimate)
and the politifact followups:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/25/lots-heat-and-some-light-obamas-spending/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-2/2012/05/30/gJQA3V4d2U_blog.html

and a few other sources:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/24/Politifact-Obama-Not-a-Big-Spender

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama-part-3/2012/06/05/gJQAY9YhGV_blog.html

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/05/actually-the-obama-spending-binge-really-did-happen/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577450910257188398.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

AND... you have yet to answer the big question:

So how do you go from 2.982 TRILLION to 3.795 TRILLION (a 27% increase in four years) and still have "the slowest growth in spending of any President in the past 60 years"?!?!?!?!?!

@ Bernie: "Ryan and Tommy both running for office have public said they will destroy or dismantle Medicare"

Where are your sources Bernie???
Ryan has constantly talked about making medicare viable for not only today's seniors, but for future ones. These quotes are from his web site:

"Standing apart from my colleagues in securing Medicare’s promise to seniors by taking this vital program off of its unsustainable fiscal path."

and

"Proposed comprehensive and compassionate reforms to make Medicare permanently solvent and give future beneficiaries greater control over their health care decisions. "

The reality is you and your ilk are destroying medicare by refusing to modify policies that have begun to fail!

@Anti-Alinsky -- What control do seniors not have over their healthcare now? They have a fee for service plan. They can purchase Medigap coverage that pays their co-pays and deductibles. If they are financially fortunate, they can pay out of pocket for any procedure they wish that isn't covered by Medicare.

The 'greater control' you talk about will be only the 'freedom to choose whatever plans and services they can afford over and above the voucher. Which may not be much.

@Randy,

And bankrupting Medicare will give how much control? Right now medicare is a losing program. With a voucher type system, at least you could get major medical.

That's not 'more control'. What, in your opinion, is bankrupting Medicare?